OLD LYME ZONING COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
PUBLIC HEARING
Tuesday, July 17, 2018
The Old Lyme Zoning Commission held a Special Meeting on Tuesday, July 17, at 7:30 p.m. in the Auditorium of the Old Lyme Middle School. Those present and voting were: Jane Cable, Chairman, Jane Marsh, Secretary, Gil Soucie, Vice Chairman, Alan Todd and Paul Orzel.
Also present: Stacey Winchell, alternate, Harvey Gemme, alternate, Keith Rosenfeld, Land Use Coordinator, and Matt Willis, Commission Counsel
Chairman Cable called the Public Hearing to order at 7:32 p.m.
1. Connecticut General Statutes 8-30g – Affordable Housing Application for 18-1 Neck Road (formerly 16 Neck Road) for 23 dwelling units. Graybill Properties, LLC, property owner. Neck Road Hope Housing, LLC, applicant. To be known as River Oak Commons I.
2. Connecticut General Statutes 8-30g – Affordable Housing Application for 18-2 Neck Road (formerly 16 Neck Road) for 14 dwelling units. Graybill Properties, LLC, property owner. Old Lyme Hope Housing, LLC, applicant. To be known as River Oak Commons II.
Chairman Cable stated that people cannot stand per the Fire Marshal. She asked people to be sure to not block the doorways.
Ms. Marsh read the list of new exhibits for the record. Ms. Marsh read the letter from Bonnie Reemsnyder, First Selectman, in its entirety.
Attorney David Royston was present representing the applicants. He stated that although their plans were filed, they had not received comments from the consulting engineer and Fire Marshal, and requested an extension to this evening to receive and address any comments. He noted that the same was true for Ledge Light Health and comments they might have had regarding the septic systems. Attorney Royston stated that each building in the development has its own septic system therefore there are multiple septic systems to review. He stated that the applications to the Health District were filed on June 4th and they have not yet received comment from the Health District. Attorney Royston stated that they also have a request in for their traffic engineer to submit additional information
to the Commission regarding sight lines, specifically the development entrance, and counts coming off the ramp and the speed at which vehicles are exiting the ramp. He explained that the traffic engineer has completed the work but will not have a completed report ready to submit until the end of this week. Attorney Royston stated that they will be sure to get a copy of the report to the Commission’s consulting traffic engineer along with Tom Metcalf. He stated that they just received comments from the Fire Marshal, David Roberge, and noted that the letter is dated July 16th which they received today. He stated that the letter raises issues with the access driveway and the units. Attorney Royston stated that Point One Architects has its own consultant working on it and they are awaiting a reply from their consultant. He stated that he would like to provide the Commission with some documents this evening and also will request an
extension of time to the September 10th Regular Meeting to allow sufficient time to respond to the comments they have received within the past week.
Attorney Royston stated that the applicants’ position with respect to the scrutiny being applied to this application is that they do not object as it is directed toward health and safety issues. He stated that they understand, fully, the concerns of the Commission with respect to the access driveway and emergency vehicle access. He stated that every item that has been raised will be addressed and it will be up to the Commission to decide whether the health and safety standards required by the CT General Statutes have been met. He stated that if they meet them they should receive approval. Attorney Royston stated that Joe Wren’s letters, the first dated July 9th were health and safety issues and the July 12th letter also addresses health and safety issues. He noted
that Mr. Metcalf ‘s letter of July 9th suggests possible conditions of approval, one of which is not allowing any work on the site until all permits are received which includes the Department of Health and State DOT. Attorney Royston noted that once all the permits are received, considerable work will have to be done by the applicant to obtain final approval of those agencies. He indicated that they understand there needs to be scrutiny. He noted that the time limits for general land use applications are applicable to an 830g affordable housing application. He noted that the Commission’s counsel is in agreement with that statement.
Attorney Royston stated that the record of this Public Hearing is being transferred to the application for River Oak Commons II. He noted that at the last hearing they submitted a supplement which designated all units in River Oak Commons I as affordable units with no market units. He submitted the supplement for River Oak Commons II which changes the number of affordable/market units in that phase of the development. Attorney Royston submitted a report from Geosciences in response to a comment made regarding lead coming off the highway into the subdivision and affecting the water. He stated that although they did not have to address this item because they will be receiving review and approval by the Health Department, they wanted the Commission to have the reasonable expectation that there would
not be a problem with the ground water on the site. Attorney Royston read the report summary. He read Joe Wren’s letter in response to comments and noted that there are health and safety comments that Mr. Wren is prepared to address with plan revisions and notes. He stated that the purpose of the extension request is to have all issues addressed professionally by the applicants and expect to be able to do their work so that there will be plans filed with sufficient time for the Town review and for the Town to provide further comments, if necessary.
Attorney Royston stated that he believes they will get documents back to the Commission within two weeks of receiving comments from the engineers. He stated that they will have plans back to the Commission no later than 30 days before the hearing.
Kristen Anderson, Women’s Institute, read their request to extend the Public Hearing to the September Regular Meeting and submitted the written request for the record. She submitted a second request to extend the Public Hearing for River Oak Commons II.
Mr. Todd pointed out that the Geoscience technical report states that only lead and manganese were detected in the sample and it goes on to say that significant lead was not detected in the sample. He questioned whether this was a typo or error. Attorney Royston stated that he believes that what they are saying is that they did not find significant lead meaning that they found what one would typically find in examining soil. He indicated that he would get clarification from Geoscience.
It was questioned whether they would be looking for comments from the police department. Attorney Royston stated that they have not and the Commission determines who will review the application on their behalf. He noted also that it is a State Highway under the jurisdiction of the State.
Ms. Winchell questioned whether the school district was questioned about bus pick up and drop off. Attorney Royston stated that they have been in touch with the bus company who referred them to the superintendent. He indicated that they will be speaking with the superintendent.
Chairman Cable asked for comments from the audience.
Pamela Hamilton, Ferry Road, stated that she assumes the decision must be based on legalities. She stated that she has driven through towns all over the country where they have changed their towns with development. She stated that it is not elitist to treasure charm and history. She stated that these qualities are what draws people here. Ms. Hamilton stated that the people of Old Lyme are generous and support the Town. She indicated that she has attended all the hearings and has not heard one person say that they should not build affordable housing but rather that she has heard that it should be built in another location in Old Lyme for a long list of sensible reasons.
Chairman Cable asked the audience to restrict their comments to health and safety.
Bill Larem, 36 Mile Creek Road, stated that Mile Creek Road is slightly south of I95 off of Route 156. He noted that there is an open reserve north of I95 and in getting there with his dog he must traverse Route 156 and I95. He questioned whether anyone has stood on Sands Road and watched the north bound exiting traffic and how it will be affected if people are trying to get out of a development where it is proposed. He stated that public safety is paramount. He stated that he does not know how the project got this far with such a safety issue at hand. Mr. Larem stated that the applicant has not looked at the project to see what problems may occur and what they can do to mitigate them. He stated that there is no resolution to this safety concern.
Debbie O’Neal stated that she has lived here her entire life. She stated that they make a constant trek to their other property in line. Ms. O’Neal stated that adding more traffic to this area will be very detrimental. She indicated that she navigates that road more than anyone and there is always someone coming off the highway that doesn’t kow what they are doing
Tim Griswold, Griswold Point, stated that he was First Selectman for fourteen years and that part of the duty of being a first selectman is being the administrative chief of police. He indicated that Old Lyme is a resident state trooper town. He asked whether the Commission has received a letter from the First Selectman or the Troop as to whether they approve of the plan. He stated that the police should give their opinion on this traffic safety issue.
Tony Lyons, Old Saybrook, Board Member of Hope Partnership, stated that Hope is not profit motivated. He indicated that they are doing this because they are concerned about people in the community. He stated that in 2014 they merged with Old Lyme Affordable Housing. He stated that Old Lyme Affordable housing built three houses prior to the merger. Mr. Lyons stated that one of the homeowners is a teacher, one is a first responder and the third works at a country club. He noted that this is the type of person they are trying to support. Mr. Lyons stated that Ferry Crossings has the same type of person living there, along with Town employees and a family that lost their home to foreclosure. He speculated that most in the room know of someone with a housing issue, whether it is a
millennial child or an elderly person. He stated that they are not trying to build a pocket of poverty as is being assumed. Mr. Lyons stated that there are affordable housing developments in Old Saybrook. He stated that he hears people say they want affordable housing but not in this location and questioned where these people have been for the past four years that Hope has been looking for a site. Mr. Lyons stated that the next project might have 137 units instead of 37 as proposed.
Bill Folland, 6 Dunns Lane, stated that he knows that he hopes that possible litigation does not come into play in their decision. He stated that he heard the traffic engineer say that there will be no problems at the I95 exit. Mr. Folland stated that at 4:00 in the afternoon on a hot day everyone is leaving Old Lyme and there is a lot of traffic on Route 156.
Heidi Kettler, 8 Wolcott Lane, stated that with 37 units with 3 or 4 kids per unit, there could be another 100 kids. She questioned what elementary school the children would be accommodated at. She stated that the Town must decide how they will deal with these additional students and it is a health and safety issue. She noted that additional police will be needed to monitor the two hundred people living on top of each other. She questioned how this would be paid for. She stated that she pays five digits in property taxes and her kids cannot get a police presence in the school yet these two hundred people will get police services. She stated that she is stunned that the police issue has not been addressed. Ms. Kettler stated that she is guessing two hundred people but there is
nothing stopping them from putting 12 people in a unit. She stated that there was a housing project where she grew up where three generations of people would live in an apartment. She questioned who would enforce it. Ms. Kettler stated that she is not saying that these people will be bad people. She stated that in her neighborhood there are families who stay even though their children are grown. She questioned whether other options such as senior housing has been looked into.
Jill Pilgrim read the letter from the Old Lyme Fire Marshal to the Old Lyme Zoning Commission.
Mario Wilmerding, 6 Old Shore Road, stated that Baldwin Bridge is one of the major traffic issues in New England. He stated that the Fire Department responds to many accidents along I-95 with one of the most dangerous sections of I-95 being from Old Lyme to Flanders Four Corners. He stated that Old Lyme needs affordable housing but he thinks the proposed location near I-95 is not the location. Mr. Wilmerding stated that he is not in favor of the proposed location.
Tammy Hinkley, 31 Lyme Street, stated that she has two school aged children and she took them to the location and stood there where the kids would be picked up by the school bus. She stated that the back of the school bus will almost be where the exit ramp is and anyone coming off the ramp is looking over their shoulder to see if they can go they will hit the back of the school bus. She stated that if it is not good enough for her kids it is not good enough for anyone’s kids.
Ms. Maynard, Ryefield Manor, stated that she spoke at the last meeting about the need for senior housing. She stated that she has a Masters in Special Education and found herself unemployed. Ms. Maynard stated that there is no safety net for seniors. She stated that she got into Ryefield Manor and today because subsidies have been cut she would not be able to get in. Ms. Maynard stated that the required mandate per Town is 10 percent and Old Lyme has 1.5 percent. She suggested that they consider senior housing. Ms. Maynard stated that having a development for seniors would alleviate concerns about the school age children. She suggested that they perhaps move the development to the land near Ryefield Manor which could probably be purchased at a good price.
Tom Orleana, Wychwood Road, stated that he has lived here for 25 years and came here because of the easy access to the highway and I-95. He stated that he and his wife have been very active in Town. He stated that he got involved with Old Lyme affordable housing to give back to the community. Mr. Orleana stated that he drives 30 to 40 thousand miles per year and people need to pay attention. He stated that when the neighborhood is developed he will need to be more careful coming off the exit. Mr. Orleana stated that he has never had a problem taking a left onto Route 156. He noted that families that want to stay local cannot. He stated that there is a member of the Fire Department that bought a house in Niantic. Mr. Orleana questioned how long it might be until this person
starts to volunteer in Niantic. He noted that the Fire Department is having trouble getting volunteers and that is a health and safety issue. He noted that the same is true for EMS.
Mr. Orleana stated that some of the people that move into these units will be people that already live in Town and their children already in the school system. He noted that he hears people worrying about crime. He noted that the crime rate is the same as the rest of the Town in Old Saybrook at the Ferry Crossings housing development and there have been no drug arrests or violent crimes there in the past year. He noted that the senior housing developments have the most calls. Mr. Orleana stated that these will be beautiful, well-constructed homes.
Richard Baxter, Gould Lane, stated that kids living there will want to go to Halls Road. He noted that there is no way to stop traffic on Route 156 and questioned how these kids will be able to get across the street.
Brian Bono, Sunset Drive, stated that he currently rents. He stated that it is not difficult to find a rental in Old Lyme. He stated that he has three kids so he agrees that there could be 100 kids in the units. Mr. Bono stated that there are affordable rentals in Old Lyme.
Heidi Fields, Hartford Avenue, stated that the cars coming off of I-95 are coming down to Hartford Avenue to the beach. She stated that she is willing to build affordable housing on Hartford Avenue. Ms. Fields stated that she has an empty 8,000 square foot building with city water.
Kevin McManus indicated that he has lived in Old Lyme for thirty years. He stated that the rent at his housing unit is $600 to $1,000 a month and that is affordable. Mr. McManus stated that he has approached the Town about affordable housing to no avail. He stated that there is plenty of affordable housing in Town but the proposed location is not a good option.
Carol Dorman, Jericho Drive, questioned whether the Town would be liable for the accidents if they deem the development safe. She questioned whether the Town would have to install a rotary or a traffic light if the State required one.
Ricky Bouletti, 307 Ferry Road, read a letter he and his wife sent the Commission after the previous public hearing.
Dominick Pappa, 14 Neck Road, stated that everyone appears to agree that affordable housing is needed in Old Lyme. He stated that everyone also appears to agree that it is a safety and health issue and he hopes the Commission sees that and requested that the board deny the request for an extension, close the public hearing and deny the application. He indicated that the applicant has been given plenty of time. Mr. Pappa stated that he is not in favor of the proposal.
Elizabeth Swenson, Old Saybrook, stated that on Ferry Road, among the people that live there is a firefighter. She stated that Old Saybrook is dependent on volunteer firefighters. She noted that another resident is a teacher. Ms. Swenson stated that the Town has been brought an excellent opportunity by professionals. She stated that this is the application before them, not one in another location. Ms. Swenson gave the Commission a copy of Sustainable Connecticut which gives Towns ideas on what they need to do to improve the health of their community. She noted that there is one suggestion in regard to affordable housing. Ms. Swenson stated that this will not diminish the quality of life in Old Lyme. She stated that Old Lyme could benefit from less fear and more
humility.
Mikala, Summerset Lane, asked whether the units discussed earlier by another audience member were considered part of Old Lyme’s affordable housing. Chairman Cable stated that the Town of Old Lyme currently has just short of 2 percent affordable housing where the State says each Town must have 10 percent. She noted that private units such as those mentioned earlier are not considered.
Les Swenson, resident of Old Saybrook, stated that he was involved with Hope in the beginning as pastor of a church that saw a need for affordable housing. He stated that a broader view of health means a healthy community. He noted that diversity of population is a big part of this; welcoming people from a broad range of backgrounds and histories and weaving them into the community. He stated that diversity opens our eyes and gives us the opportunity to appreciate our lives beyond our sometimes limited and narrow world views. He stated that this proposal will enrich and enhance Old Lyme.
Michael Foliano, resident of 26 years, stated that there has been a lot of discussion regarding the danger of pulling out of the development. He noted that professional engineers have been engaged by both the applicants and the Town that will provide objective data that will allow the Commission to evaluate the safety of the site and he hopes public opinion will not supersede this information provided by professionals. He stated that the people that will benefit from this are depending upon a good decision.
Bill Larem, 36 Mile Creek Road, stated that people exiting that project in the morning will be a greater number then that of a single-family residence. He stated that he has stood and videotaped the area and will continue to. Mr. Larem stated that he does not understand how they can let this come to be as it cannot be made safe.
A motion was made by Gil Soucie, seconded by Alan Todd and voted unanimously to continue the Public Hearing to the next Regular Meeting of the Zoning Commission on Monday, September 10, 2018 at 7:30 p.m. at the Lyme-Old Lyme Middle School Auditorium for the Affordable Housing Application for 18-1 Neck Road - Neck Road Hope Housing, LLC, (formerly 16 Neck Road) for 23 dwelling units to be known as River Oak Commons I and 18-2 Neck Road Old Lyme Hope Housing, LLC (formerly 16 Neck Road) for 14 dwelling units to be known as River Oak Commons II.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
A motion was made by Gil Soucie, seconded by Paul Orzel and voted unanimously to approve the Minutes of the February 12, 2018 Public Hearing and Regular Meeting, Minutes of the March 12, 2018 Public Hearing and Regular Meeting and the Minutes of the April 9, 2018 Public Hearing and Regular Meeting as submitted, except for a correction to the March 12, 2018 Regular Meeting Minutes, page 5, under Old Business: second paragraph “Chairman Cable stated that she would recuse herself.”
At 9:35 p.m. Chairman Cable closed the Public Hearing.
Respectfully,
Susan J. Bartlett
Susan J. Bartlett
Recording Secretary
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