Town of Mashpee
Blue Ribbon Comprehensive Committee
Minutes of Meeting
April 27, 2006
The Town of Mashpee Blue Ribbon Committee was called to order in Mashpee Town Hall, 16 Great Neck Road North, Mashpee, Massachusetts at 7:00 p.m.on Thursday, April 27, 2006. The Vice Chairman, Chuckie Green, presided.
Blue Ribbon Committee Members present: Chuckie Green, Vice Chair; Beverly Kane; John Miller; Douglas Storrs, Clerk and Ted Theis. Absent this evening were Chairman Don Myers; Zella Elizenberry, Lee Gurney and Glenn Santos.
Also present: F. Thomas Fudala, Town Planner and Ed Baker, a Mashpee citizen.
A quorum being present, the Chairman called the meeting to order.
Approval of Minutes
Minutes were approved for meetings held on March 9, 2006 and March 23,2006. Review/approval of minutes from the meeting on April 6, 2006 were withheld, until the May 4, 2006 meeting, pending approval.
Communications
Public Comments
There were no communications or public comments at this time.
Old Business
Reports from each Board/Commission regarding DCPC recommendations
Beverly Kane, Chair of the Planning Board, passed out to members of the Blue Ribbon Committee a document regarding water resource recommendations and actions that the Board was working on. Under the category: Current Status, Ms. Kane had used red ink for items that had to be completed sooner than other items, prioritized for the Thursday, May 25, 2006, BRCC meeting.
One example of these DCPC actions was a presentation assigned to Charles Rowley, the Town Engineer, regarding a site inspection and storm water runoff in Mashpee and Santuit Rivers. There were several other DCPC presentations prioritized to take place These included zoning by-laws on storm water management; a water quality report; and one on open space residential development. Ms. Kane also said that the Board would be using the Town of Franklin Best Development Practices Guide Book for Mashpee zoning by-laws, who’s web page is www.franklin.ma.us./town/planning/HANDBOOK.PDF.
John Miller, an associate board member of the Conservation Commission, said that Steve Solbo, the Conservation Agent, was looking at items presented by Jack Fitzsimmons, a Board member of the Conservation Commission, in his BRCC presentation several weeks ago. He was citing conservationists taking interest in some town in and outside of Massachusetts that have developed conservation based rules and regulations which may have by-laws established such as a storm drain committee and water run-off committee, where there were subsets of other committees in the town of Mashpee. Mr. Miller also spoke about nitrogen pollutants distributed by air as a concern. The Vice Chairman, Chuckie Green, asked what the Town could do about airborne nitrogen pollutants and Mr. Miller replied that
it was an excellent question, he said that some of these pollutants could be coming out of state, even New York and coming in the direction of Cape Cod and that he didn’t have an answer for how to prevent it.
Mashpee citizen Ed Baker spoke about a meeting in Yarmouth he had gone to several weeks ago, when a speaker from Cornell University gave a presentation on nitrogen from the air. The speaker, according to Mr. Baker, said that the science had not been glued down in any way, shape or form. He said that nitrogen comes not only from the drain, but that it comes dry and it comes wet, and a lot of it appears to be associated with automobiles. They found heavier concentrations of airborne material closer to the roads, than away from the roads, on either side of the traveled roadway, they had heavier concentrations.
Mr. Baker thought that the roadways in Mashpee should have buffer strips, as the rivers had them. He said the only measurement system, which he was aware of on the Cape, was in Truro (corrected by the Town Planner). He added that the measurement does wet depositions and they factored out the wet to figure out how the dry was averaging.
The Vice Chair said it sounded like new science.
The Town Planner, Tom Fudala, said that the Cornell scientists were doing measurements off Route 28, down to the Quashnet River, measurements of particulate and gaseous forms of nitrogen. The Town Planner joked that what had become a traffic problem has become a nitrogen problem.
Mr. Miller said that from an educational standpoint and for public knowledge, it showed that the public might be getting a grasp that Title 5 didn’t solve nitrogen loading in septic systems and fertilizers that were not organic, add to that mix, what’s floating around the air, whether power plants in Sandwich or industrial sites in New Jersey, it’s all part of the process, he said.
The Vice Chair asked Ted Theis if he had any information he wanted to share in the educational venue. Mr. Theis said he was still gathering information, and had been drafted to the Special Events Committee and that the committee was trying to do a series of games for various youth organizations, such as a bean bag toss or a dunking booth, to use this as an opportunity to pass out brochures for education for air and water quality and how to tie them together.
The Vice Chair asked if Mr. Theis had any more information on printing documents from jail?
Mr. Theis said that it could be made to happen, with printing, it wouldn’t be a problem in black and white and perhaps two colors. The inmates would be doing clean up for a non-profit organization.
The Vice Chair said he had one item from the Board of Health; Steven Ball approached him if he could have another member on days when Glenn Santos could not be there and sit as an alternate to take in the meeting. Mr. Ball had been told it was undoable, but the Vice Chair said that it could be done, and though they would like to maintain the BRCC group from start to finish. He added that he would like someone to take back to the Board what was going on at the BRCC meetings, than not have anyone.
Ms. Kane suggested the Board of Selectmen would elect the alternate. The Vice Chair said that was what he wanted to ask the Committee to allow that action to be taken by the Board.
Motion A motion was made that the BRCC committee allow the Board of Selectmen to select a Board of Health alternate, should Glenn Santos not be available. The motion was seconded and all agreed.
Mr. Miller spoke regarding the Chamber of Commerce essay contest on the Future of the Town of Mashpee had “zero response.” He said that announcements were made at the school to Future Business Leaders as an optional assignment as part of their senior project. The cut off date was school vacation week.
Mr. Theis spoke that in working with the CHIPs program, regarding police and children going missing said that the response in grade and middle schools was better than in upper grade schools. He said he thought the same was going to be true in any educational process regarding the environment. The Vice Chairman said that the Committee should take the approach of another school, since it did not work out at Mashpee High School. The Vice Chair said he would be turning the idea over to future action items. The Town Planner had more information on denitrifying systems, which he spoke about.
According to Mr. Fudala, the EPA program had many model scenarios—one of the scenarios was what if everybody on the watershed had a denitrifying system. He said the water would actually be worse and that the bottom line was that there was going to be more sewering at a higher treatment rate was going to be needed, because dentrification does not solve problem because of build up.
The Vice Chairman added that a lot of the onsite systems were not utilized being utilized by their full effect—they were summer homes, not occupied year-round.
The Town Planner said that there had not been monitoring programs in all fifteen towns. He said that the standard septic system did not have the biggest reduction— 19—26 ½ percent and that there was a little more in a leach field.
Mr. Miller spoke asked if in the most recent subdivisions, there were twenty lots and required to have twenty stand-alone systems for a two bedroom house, it would be a deterrent to development when and if it is completed, versus having one larger system for all of those twenty lots would be more economical. How much more would a system for twenty lots cost, versus an individual system, he added?
Mr. Theis said that it would probably not be so much cash flow.
But, Mr. Miller said, you could make the same argument in building the first 300 feet of the road.
The Vice Chairman asked if he was correct in saying that most of the denites which were done in Mashpee were being done by the Conservation Commission?
According to Mr. Miller, the vice Chairman was correct.
The Town Planner spoke up and asked rhetorically how to mitigate nitrogen impact. There hasn’t been many subdivisions, that have been denitrated, two or three, he said. He said that rather than putting money into a denite system in would be better to put the money into an escrow account, in those circumstances.
Mr. Theis asked if there had ever been a discussion or serious study on gray water septic systems in residential areas.
Not as a municipal effort, he said he hadn’t seen it as an approach by other towns, the Town Planner said.
Mr. Theis asked about the mechanics or treatment time, so that a property owner would not be flushing a bunch of water through your septic system, it would have to have time to work. He wondered if it would be, in the long run, a better denitrification system.
The Town Planner replied that leach field using oxygen—nobody has approached it for a wastewater issue.
Land Management and Usage—Douglas Storrs
Mr. Storrs started his presentation stating that up until this time, the committee was taking about land management in very general terms.
If nitrogen was the driving issue, he said, nitrogen to land use was the principal issue to lakes and ponds. He said that in talking about land use to nitrogen issues, the concentration would require a wastewater treatment plant and that it should be discussed. The developers should be providing growth centers treated by wastewater treatment. He described that this was one of section in the list of action items, which Ms. Kane had provided.
Another issue, he stated, was how to deal with nitrogen out of Certified Growth Issues. Mr. Storrs said that any concentration of existing uses were for smaller package treatment plants in the community. The cost was monumental, he said, in wastewater treatment facilities. The cost (for smaller package treatment facilities) would fall on the homeowner, and would be the homeowner’s burden, he added.
Mr. Storrs said that he was not a big fan of build out. But that if the population continues to grow, any change or attempt to provide for more affordable housing, socioeconomic issues haven’t gone down that path strongly as a community. He said that the struggle to solve already built housing, using Pirate’s Cove as a sample of a high concentration of development. He said that if he had a magic want, every new growth and every new unit should not be put on a two-acre parcel. It would be economically advantageous, he said, to build a house in a certified growth center.
The Town Planner interjected, saying that the Town did not have subdivisions with two-acre lots. That most of the land on Route 130 and Quashnet Road, build out was already permitted. That there were very few parcels left. According to the Town Planner, people had grand fathered lots and it was their right to have them. The Town would need to create an incentive to put in certified growth centers.
Mr. Storrs said that there should be created a Cape-wide land bank. That it would be ideal if there were enough incentive not to build a house next to “X” entity, in a land bank certified growth center.
Ms. Kane said that with this type of growth center, it would take away individual rights to live where they wanted.
The Town Planner said that there would be no legislation without a Business Round Table.
Mr. Storrs said that many land bank programs statewide had the same issues—the phenomenal cost to live in old farmhouses—that building a house would be an economic incentive.
The Town Planner said that if you want to do development in rural areas, you have to face farmers and the rights on the farms. He said that a 40B appears easier to get than not to start worrying about local zoning. He asked rhetorically “What incentive would be more than a 40B?”
Mr. Storrs said it would use economic incentives as a solution—that the landowner could also sell the rights to two units—working both ends of the market.
Mr. Miller said that it occurred to him that commonly used certified growth center would be giving up return to the developer. He said if a guy owns a main lot, he would have a heavy incentive to take into account appreciation of an asset.
Mr. Storrs said that right now, there is no incentive to create a new development to zone into a growth center, and that he would build out the community if previously approved lots.
The Vice Chair asked if there would be a plan to do a large project. How do we add to your project?
Mr. Storrs said by adding a third or fourth story.
The Town Planner added to the discussion. He said that he could sell a lot and could get multipliers-incentives. He asked how many units would it take for an incentive. He said that the minimal in by-law is 2 ½. The big question was, he said, what if that’s not a big incentive and four units were not enough? How much incentive does it take? He said that the traffic disappears with six units. Nitrogen units would not disappear. The total numbers in town regarding nitrogen would be greater.
The Vice Chairman said he was not a person who would like to live in growth centers. But he added that if you put people in these growth areas, the people would not be making as many trips, but it there were four to six units, there would still be more traffic.
Mr. Theis added that people would work in their neighborhood.
Ms. Kane said that there must be a convincing of citizens to live in three to four stories.
The Town Planner said tat he did not want to make it worse. That they would not be starting from scratch and that it was going to take sewers.
Ms. Kane spoke and said that Pirate’s Cove had their own sewer system.
The Town Planner said there may be a new land system—may end up with more land, more cost effective.
The Vice Chairman said that Mr. Storr’s system would not change the problem of nitrogen and sewering. He said that Santuit Woods had so many buildings tin ten thousand acre square foot lots, and that the phosphorous nitrates were being diverted into the pond. He added that they were looking at satellite plants.
The Town Planner said tat there was no place to put all the sewer plants and that they would have to work with the sewer commission.
The Vice Chairman said that he didn’t like multi-stories, but could see the logic of taking lots out of development.
The Town Planner said that density population in Mashpee was Santuit Pond and that infrastructure costs would be the same. He said the transfer would not cost anything.
Mr. Storrs said that was not the point and that there was not one single answer to sewers. He said it would cost millions of dollars. That in the sewer district, people were going to have to pay $50-100 thousand dollars.
The Town Planner said it was not a small cost.
Mr. Storrs said it would be a drastic hit to the homeowner and that it may or may not work. He added that transfer would be imperfect. That the Land Bank would hold land, until a new buyer is found. The solution should be multi-faceted. He added that the infrastructure may have to go to three story buildings. That it would be the same cost building anything. That there would be economic disparity and that everybody in town should pay “X” dollars in taxes.
Ms. Kane said that it was a fair way that everyone should share in a perfect/imperfect world.
Mr. Storrs said that everybody benefits from embankments and towns being improved.
The Town Planner said that on the water, the bill is higher.
Mr. Miller wondered if the frame of reference would extend beyond the Town of Mashpee. He wondered if the Town would be able to dilute the problem to different localities, expand beyond Mashpee.
Mr. Storrs talked about a regionalization Cape-wide waster water transit.
Mr. Miller talked about centralizing work places and working spaces, and thought the odds of it happening in two to three towns or over two towns. That it would be a Cape-wide debate.
Mr. Storrs said that by doing nothing—it fails and can perpetuate, forget about the quality of the rivers. He asked rhetorically: “What are “x,” “y,” “z” sewer neighborhoods? Certified growth areas. He added that it was a tough process and that to do nothing was a failure.
The Vice Chairman said that the nitrogen problems were out of hand.
Ms. Kane said that they had been talking about the issue for ten years.
Mr. Storrs said that Mashpee Commons was in the 300-350 ranges. And asked why not expand the wastewater treatment plant?
The Town Planner said it was a terrible place to get rid of wastewater.
Ms. Kane said that they had to look at it.
The Town Planner said moving treated wastewater then sewage water line there was very few places in Town. He said it was a lot cheaper, and to put it back once it’s been treated in the southern half of town. He suggested moving the wastewater to the military base.
The Vice Chairman said that the subject had been through three groups of studies and that they all said that there was too much nitrogen in the system. He said that he didn’t like the idea of going up (in housing units), but if going up, he could look at it with an open mind, that it was not a solution, the need was to sewer the Town of Mashpee.
The Town Planner said that there was not a lot of vacant land to transfer, adding every person who moves into Town.
The Vice Chairman said that it would take lots out of development?
The Town Planner said that on treatment plants, New Seabury’s Southport had between five and ten lots to be developed in this manner.
The Vice Chairman said Camp Pendleton had 200-300 lots.
Mr. Theis said that if two or three hundred lots, Mr. Storrs could find a way to attempt to use them, then “What is the discussion?”
Mr. Miller said that it was a quasi-public entity, like a residential business EDIC concept. He added that taking 300 lots and converting them into a certified growth center in Bourne.
The Vice Chairman said that they would need to retain 300 lots.
The Town Planner said that the Committee could not set the price.
The Vice Chairman said that there could be affordable housing, nitrogen renewable, more open spaces, and access to public transit.
Mr. Storrs said that there has always’ been a problem. He added that four units in a certified growth center would be twice the amount of gallon, twice as much flow and six times lower nitrogen.
There was more discussion between the Committee members about certified growth units, with Mr. Storrs saying that there was two parking spaces in these types of units, in that type of center, it wouldn’t make much sense in one or two level units.
Mr. Miller said that visual pollution would be a problem. He added that a big basement be built with spaces for parking below ground—there would be more housing. The other Committee members, such as Mr. Storrs, and the Town Planner agreed with the two to three story building idea of underground garages.
Mr. Storrs said that for an average home, it would cost $25,000 dollars for a wastewater treatment plan. It would be very expensive. That in Pirate’s Cove, it would cost $20-30,000 to build a plant.
The Vice Chairman should it should be town-wide, spread throughout the community.
Mr. Storrs said it would be hard for people.
The Town Planner said it would affect 60-70% of the community.
The Town Planner said all the lots available were scattered all over Town.
Mr. Theis said that for some buyers who live in the interior, they might like to live in Pirate’s cove in a townhouse.
Mr. Storrs said that new units could be bought in New Seabury—100 units.
Ms. Kane asked if the Town Planner could get a location of the units.
Motion: The Vice Chairman made a motion to adjourn and to speak about the land usage issue would resume in two meetings and so the Committee did unanimously adjourn.
(The April 27, 2006 Town of Mashpee Blue Ribbon Comprehensive Committee was thereupon dissolved at 8:30 PM)
Respectfully Submitted by
Kimberly Hurd
Board Secretary
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