REGULAR TOWN BOARD MEETING AUGUST 18, 2009
A regular Meeting of the Town Board of Guilderland was held at the Town Hall, Route 20 McCormick's Corners, Guilderland, NY, on the above date at 7:30 pm. The meeting was opened with the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. Roll call by Rosemary Centi, Town Clerk, showed the following to be present:
Councilman Redlich |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Councilman Pastore |
Councilman Grimm |
Supervisor Runion |
ALSO PRESENT: Richard Sherwood, Town Attorney
**********************************************************************
Supervisor Runion welcomed everyone to the evening’s meeting and asked for a motion accepting the minutes of the July 7, 2009 Town Board meeting.
MOTION #128 Councilwoman Slavick moved to ACCEPT THE MINUTES OF THE JULY 7, 2009 TOWN BOARD MEETING. Councilman Pastore seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Abstained |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD: No public comment
PUBLIC HEARINGS:
7:30 PM – Re-zone request of Amedore Homes for a parcel located at 2969 Old State Road from R-30 to Townhouse (TH)
Town Clerk, Rosemary Centi, read the legal notice.
Supervisor Runion read a memorandum from Town Planner, Jan Weston. (P 95A)
Ms. Weston felt that approving the Townhouse re-zone was premature.
John Bossolini, representing the applicant, asked that the Board consider the action of the re-zone.
He described the design plan for 42 maintenance - free Town homes.
aniel Hershberg, engineer for the applicant, designer of the drainage system, explained through a power point presentation the scope of the plan regarding the drainage system for the property.
He described the system as handling the drainage from other neighboring areas including the new site.
The detention pond would collect from three basins with a capacity of 13.4 acre-feet and storage of about 4 million gallons of water. He further stated that the detention pond was made larger in order to accommodate drainage from all areas. This would reduce the existing flows. (Document available in the Town Clerk’s Office)
He further explained that by doing a Town house development the amount of impervious area would be reduced.
Councilman Redlich asked how the drainage system would be managed.
Mr. Hershberg stated that Amedore is willing to have the Homeowner Association manage it or the Town could do a drainage district.
Councilman Redlich asked about cost.
Mr Hershberg stated that it would be approximately $350.00 per unit.
Mr. Brick, attorney for the applicant, stated that the re-zone was in conformity with the Town’s Comprehensive Plan and would not constitute spot zoning.
It also conformed with regard to the recommendation for housing designed for the 55 year old age group.
Bob Smith, Woodlawn Drive, expressed his concern with the flow of drainage from the site and the impact on his property and on others.
Stuart Fenton, W. Old State Road, expressed his concern with the drainage on the site, the impervious nature of the proposed site that would cause flooding, with the increase in traffic and with the standing water pooling in the spring potentially fostering mosquitoes.
Paul Gleasman, W. Old State Road, stated that he was in favor of the development but he wanted the water issue taken care of. He also asked if the pond needed to be that big.
Daniel Hershberg stated that the existing 12” pipe will be corrected with a new 12” pipe with a concrete swale and a grate. He further explained that there are federal wetlands on the site, which hold water at various times of the year. These have to be avoided.
He described the pond on the site as being a water feature for the development with a nature trail going around it. There will be two aerators in the pond. In order for the pond not to dry out, the pond will be excavated 6 – 8 feet below the water table. The pond will have to be maintained.
Councilman Redlich asked if approval was needed from the Army Corp. of Engineers for the excavation.
Mr. Hershberg stated that they did not.
Councilwoman Slavick asked about the height of the fence around the pond, Mr. Hershberg stated that it would be 4’ high.
Mr. Smith reiterated his question regarding drainage to his neighborhood.
Mr Hershberg explained that the effect of the plan would have less water running into the culvert flowing into his area. The reason is that the tributary area to that pipe across Old State Road will be reduced from 4.72 acres of ground to 2.81 acres of ground. The drainage from the paved area of the site will be diverted to the pond basin. He further stated that no overflow would occur from the pond. All the water from the stream course will be significantly reduced.
He stated that Amedore homes proposed to maintain the stream course as part of their project.
Councilman Pastore asked how many of the Town Homes would have basements.
Mr. Bossolini stated that they would like all of the homes to have basements.
Discussion was held regarding raising the grade above ground water level.
Councilwoman Slavick asked about traffic concerns.
Mr. Brick stated that Creighton Manning, who did a study regarding traffic analysis for the area, said that the project is projected to add an additional 26 peak hour trips in the AM and 30 trips during the PM peak hour.
This would have a minimal impact on the surrounding roadway network including the Carman Road/Old State Road intersection. Therefore, no traffic mitigation is necessary for this project.
He gave the Board examples of storm water ponds as design features. Homeowner Associations in the area maintained these ponds.
He further addressed the Board on the issue of the re-zone and stated that the applicant had addressed the concerns of the Boards regarding drainage and with the re-zone could continue with addressing the issue more quickly.
Councilman Redlich asked the Town Designated Engineer his opinion of the project.
Mr. Ken Johnson, Delaware Engineering, stated that he had reviewed the plans and they had already looked into creating a drainage district for the pond area. He further stated that this project would help the drainage by lowering the amount of water going into the existing culverts.
Councilman Redlich asked if this would help drainage and for a comparison of this reservoir to the McKownville Reservoir.
Mr. Johnson stated that this would help with drainage but that the McKownville Reservoir is deeper, and that this pond was a fairly shallow, larger sized pond.
Councilman Pastore asked if these were comparable reservoirs and Mr. Johnson stated that they were quite different, they were two different situations.
Mr. Fenton questioned whether basements would increase the water level.
Daniel Hershberg explained that the basements would be above the ground water table and would not raise water levels.
Mr. Smith stated that he was very satisfied with the presentation and the responses to the drainage questions that he posed.
Tom Tedisco, Old State Road, asked about the entryway to the project.
Councilman Pastore asked if there would be any impact on drainage if the town homes were on slabs.
Mr. Hershberg stated that there would not be any impact with a basement or a slab.
Phil Battaglino, Old State Road, expressed his concern with drainage and accountability for any problems with drainage.
Councilwoman Slavick asked about drainage districts.
Mr. Hershberg explained various drainage district possibilities.
Rodger Stone, Stormwater Management Officer, stated that this project had a comprehensive and workable stormwater management plan.
MOTION #129 Councilman Redlich moved to CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING ON THE RE-ZONE REQUEST OF AMEDORE HOMES. Councilman Pastore seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion stated that in the memo from the Town Planner she felt that voting on the re-zone was premature. He further stated that he had a number of questions regarding drainage issues.
He expressed his concern with the design features as was also mentioned in the Town Planner’s memo.
Councilwoman Slavick expressed her concern that a solution be developed for drainage districts.
Councilman Redlich expressed his concern with this project being borderline spot zoning and with traffic, but that the presentation about drainage improvement was compelling.
He further stated that the applicant should not be made to wait and that the drainage problem should be resolved.
Supervisor Runion stated that a storm management plan should be discussed further and a rush to decision will not result in the project moving forward any faster.
Councilwoman Slavick stated that she felt a drainage system should be in place before the Board moved forward
She further stated that this was a good project and would help with drainage issues but that accountability should be addressed.
Councilman Pastore asked if any discussion had occurred regarding a drainage district.
Ken Johnson, Town Designated Engineer, stated that they were working on fees.
Councilman Grimm explained how drainage is handled in his neighborhood.
He also felt that a plan needed to be in place for drainage.
Supervisor Runion stated that unlike in the past, drainage issues needed to be looked at closely with accountability being determined.
He also stated that the issues brought before the Board by the neighbors had to be addressed.
Councilman Grimm asked if the drainage district issue could be addressed in the Planning Board process.
Supervisor Runion responded that some agreements had to be made with the developers concerning how the districts would be formed and how funds would be put together to maintain the district in order to protect homeowners as time goes on.
He further stated that the Highway Superintendent would like to look at the district also.
Further discussion was held regarding the issues of the drainage districts maintained by the Town or Homeowners Associations.
Councilman Redlich asked if the drainage district would extend to the neighbors further down from the development.
Supervisor Runion stated that it could. He further stated that it was the Board’s responsibility, as they approve new projects, to insure that there would not be drainage issues for neighbors.
Councilman Redlich stated that they should set up a much larger drainage district.
Supervisor Runion stated that they would have to hear from the Town Designated Engineer and the Highway Department.
Mr. Hershberg stated that under law, the applicant, whoever signs the notice of intent to maintain the district, makes a signed commitment to maintain the district. The ultimate arbiter would be the State under the Department of Environmental Conservation. If it were not maintained there would be significant fines levied.
The maintenance agreement would have an enforcement item.
Councilman Pastore asked if the applicant could go back to the Planning Board to discuss some design concepts.
Mr. Brick asked what jurisdiction the Planning Board would have without a re-zone?
He further stated that they could work with staff regarding design concerns.
Councilman Pastore commented on the Town Planner’s memo and her concern with the design concept and drainage issues.
Councilman Grimm stated that he would be leery of drainage districts. It would be expanding the reach of government and creating another taxing jurisdiction.
Councilman Redlich stated that this drainage project made sense.
Superior Runion stated that he was looking for accountability. He also wanted to make sure that the neighbors’ issues with drainage would be addressed and taken care of now and in the future.
Further discussion was held regarding the issue of drainage districts.
Councilwoman Slavick stated that she would like the Town Designated Engineer, Town Planner, Rodger Stone, Highway Superintendent to discuss these issues and come back to the Board.
MOTION #130 Councilman Redlich moved to TABLE THIS ITEM UNTIL THE TOWN BOARD MEETING OF OCTOBER 6, 2009. Councilwoman Slavick seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
AGENDA ITEMS:
Item #1 on the agenda concerned the permanent appointment of Donald Csaposs to the position of Grant Writer from the Albany County Civil Service List.
MOTION #131 Councilwoman Slavick moved to PERMANENTLY APPOINT DONALD CSAPOSS TO THE POSITION OF GRANT WRITER FROM THE ALBANY COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE LIST. Councilman Pastore seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Opposed |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Opposed – “Our grant procurement process has really been a disappointment. We didn’t realize any money from the stimulus funding. When we established the West End Water Project homeowners were required to pay a $1,600.00 tap in fee. They also were going to pay higher rates. Again, that was an enormous opportunity for a grant opportunity. McKownville, the sewer issues. We still haven’t realized any grant money for what would be a very important and valuable project. Guilderland Center, the residents are still waiting for their sidewalks. Again, another opportunity for grants that really would make a difference. I think
there is a solution to improve our grant procurement process, that is to involve people that do this for a living, individuals and companies who could be possibly fee based or commission based. There are many companies that are willing to get involved in these sorts of things. That would go a long way to improving many of the things in Town that obviously require money and are beyond the scope of Town finances. I think that this vote is really a vote for more of the same when we can do much better in terms of our grant procurement process.” |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Item #2 on the agenda concerned joining with the Guilderland School District in a tax certiorari proceeding filed by 20 Mall at Guilderland, LLC, retaining the law firm of Girvin and Ferlazzo, and sharing the fees associated with the proceeding 30% to the Town and 70% to the school district.
Councilman Grimm asked for an explanation of the case and if litigation was necessary?
Supervisor Runion explained that the School District, as a rule, joins in litigation to split the fees for a common goal. The applicant had not submitted information for a settlement so litigation was necessary. Neither party can settle the case without the other.
Further discussion was held.
MOTION #132 Councilwoman Slavick moved to APPROVE JOINING WITH THE GUILDERLAND SCHOOL DISTRICT IN A TAX CERTIORARI PROCEEDING FILED BY 2O MALL AT GUILDERLAND, LLC, RETAINING THE LAW FIRM OF GIRVIN & FERLAZZO, AND SHARING THE FEES ASSOCIATED WITH THE PROCEEDING 30% TO THE TOWN AND 70% TO THE SCHOOL DISTRICT. Councilman Pastore seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Opposed – “I am not comfortable with appointing Girvin & Ferlazzo without having questions answered about their role in this secret Police Department investigation and I am not pleased about the fact that I asked them for billing information on that and they did not provide it to me and I think that this would be better done if we put all our litigated cases together and put them out to bid. I think we would save the taxpayer’s money for both the school district and ourselves. |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye– “Because we are mentioning individuals names and firm names, I really want this to be on the record as well as his vote. You indicated that you asked for information from a law firm, Girvin & Ferlazzo, when did you request that information”?
Councilman Redlich responded that he had requested the information “yesterday”. |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Item #3 on the agenda concerned retaining the services of Barton & Loguidice, P.C. to complete Preliminary Storm Sewer Shed Mapping required pursuant to Phase II Storm Water MS4 requirements.
Tom Baird, managing engineer, representing Barton & Loguidice, explained that they had submitted a proposal to map the storm sheds for the Town. There are 205 storm water discharge points which have to mapped and in the Town’s possession by March 9, 2010.
The proposal is $13,800 and would include a map report as well GIS based software and program that you can put on you computer and click on for information about each point.
Additional information can be added in the future.
MOTION #133 Councilman Pastore moved to RETAIN THE SERVICES OF BARTON & LOGUIDICE, P.C. TO COMPLETE PRELIMINARY STORM SEWER SHED MAPPING REQUIRED PURSUANT TO PHASE II STORM WATER MS4 REQUIREMENTS. Councilman Redlich seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
MOTION #134 Councilman Pastore moved to RETAIN THE SERVICES OF BARTON & LOGUIDICE, P.C. TO PERFORM DR. SHAW ROAD PEDESTRIAN AND TRAFFIC CALMING FEASIBILITY STUDY. Councilman Redlich seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye – “ I actually chatted this weekend with one of the residents from Sachem Circle and she indicated that since the Stewarts came in there were a lot more people walking and biking over to the Stewarts from their houses and that is one of the reasons why there is demand for this now. She was very supportive of this and I am in favor.” |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye - “As a liaison to the Traffic Safety Committee for the past eight or nine years, this issue has been brought before the committee many times, people would like to walk on Dr. Shaw Road so I am very much in favor of this going forward.” |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye – “ I am voting in favor because I have talked to people on that road who want the study because they want improvement. But I am also mindful that we are dipping into contingency funds when earlier in the year there were cuts in key areas.” |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye – “I vote in favor and just as I reiterated I think it is worthwhile project and I look forward to working with you and seeing your report.”
|
MOTION #135 Councilman Redlich moved to APPROVE RELEASING THE ESCROW FOR MILL HILL RETIREMENT COMMUNITY PURSUANT TO THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE TOWN DESIGNATED ENGINEER IN THE AMOUNT OF $959.04. Councilman Pastore seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
MOTION #136 Councilwoman Slavick moved to APPROVE THE TRANSFERS AS SUBMITTED BY THE TOWN COMPTROLLER. Councilman Redlich seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Item #7 on the agenda concerned authorizing the Supervisor to obtain Requests for Proposals for telephone service.
Supervisor Runion stated that they were looking to save approximately $400.00 - $500.00 per month.
MOTION #137 Councilman Pastore moved to AUTHORIZE THE SUPERVISOR TO OBTAIN REQUESTS FOR PROPOSALS FOR TELEPHONE SERVICE. Councilman Redlich seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Item #8 on the agenda concerned authorizing the Supervisor to retain counsel and begin condemnation proceedings, if necessary, for a parcel of land for re-construction of Stitt Road.
Supervisor Runion explained that Wm. Larned & Sons has a reclamation project which they are working on and part of their approval was that they realign Stitt Road, reconstruct it, which would eventually become a Town road. In order for them to complete the project, they have 1.2 acres of land that they need a dedicated right-of-way for. When the reclamation is completed, they will be turning over some of the reclaimed property to the Town, which is approximately 77 acres of green space, next to the Watervliet Reservoir, and will remain evergreen.
He further stated that he had contacted Joshua Efron, who handles eminent domain proceedings. Mr. Efron indicated that he would attempt, through the first phase, to negotiate with the owner of the property to sell the property to the Town for its appraised value. If that is unsuccessful they would go to phase two, which is the actual condemnation of the property.
Councilman Grimm asked if the owner was at the meeting.
Supervisor Runion stated that they had tried to contact the owner and they were unwilling to turn over the property or to sell the property.
Francis J. Bossolini, PE, representing Wm. M. Larned & Sons, explained that this was a twenty –year old matter from a Special Use Permit that was issued by the Town some time ago for the mine. Part of the condition was for the Larned family to reconstruct this road.
The Wagner family were receptive to the discussion; they have been unable to resolve the issue with the Empie family.
There is no existing Town right -of- way there.
Councilman Redlich stated that since he had not had a chance to speak with the property owner he requested that the item be tabled.
He asked what would happen if this were not done.
Mr. Bossolini explained that this was one of the conditions of the Special Use Permit and of the DEC permits.
Mr. Donald Larned explained the history of the area regarding ownership of the land, the permit and reclamation project.
He further explained the Town’s Special Use Permit regarding the mine and the conditions relative to it.
He stated that the Larned family had discussed the issue with a number of landowners and neighbors in the area including the Empie family. This was a 1400 ft. length of road that was already in use. This was a thirty-year problem.
He further stated that everything was done except for this portion of the road.
Councilman Redlich asked what would happen if the Town eliminated the condition of the Special Use Permit?
Mr. Larned stated that the neighbors would not get a public road. He asked for an answer from the Board.
Town Attorney, Richard Sherwood, stated that any condemnation proceeding would be noticed. He further stated that if actual notice is effectuated, you could try to negotiate; you would not have to go through with the process.
Mr. Bossolini explained that this would be a procedural process so that the landowner understands the gravity of the situation regarding the Larned family, that they are required to do this as a condition of their Special Use Permit and until now there has not been any weight behind there question.
Councilwoman Slavick asked how many times has an attempt been made to contact the landowner.
Mr. Larned stated that the last time was in the 1990’s. At the time, the family was indifferent.
He was asking the Board for some help and guidance to resolve the issue.
Councilman Redlich asked what would happen if the Special Use condition were removed.
Mr. Bossolini stated that the Town would have a public road, a discontinuity and then a public road.
Councilman Redlich stated that was the current situation.
Supervisor Runion stated that if this did not become a public road, school buses would not travel on the road, mail would not be delivered; the Town would not plow it. Public utilities might not be installed.
The six homeowners would begin to sense some issues and their understanding was that they would be living on a public road.
Mr. Bossolini stated that they could make one last attempt to contact the Empie family and based on that, if that doesn’t work we would defer to Town’s counsel.
Mr. Larned stated that the family had been last contacted in 2000. He further stated that they would make it a total public road with drainage, and they would pay for it. He again asked for help with the situation. They were trying to conform to the Special Use Permit.
Councilman Pastore stated that another contact should be made since one hasn’t been done in quite some time.
Supervisor Runion asked for authorization to send another letter to the homeowner.
Councilman Redlich asked for a summary of all of the attempts at communication. He further stated that one letter was not enough to start taking someone’s property. He would like to see a greater effort documented.
Supervisor Runion stated that the road was already there and was being used. It was a road by use and not with a specific title. He further explained that the Larned family upgraded the road and the question is who owns what is underneath. This was vacant land.
Councilman Redlich stated that this was the Larned family’s responsibility and that the Town should not be made to pay for this eminent domain proceeding.
Supervisor Runion stated that he would be willing to send a certified letter to the owner.
Councilman Pastore moved to send a letter to the homeowner soliciting a response.
Supervisor Runion stated that rather than make a motion he would send a letter to the homeowner and if there is no response before the September 17, 2009 Town Board meeting, he will bring it back before the Board to authorize the condemnation.
This would allay any confusion regarding an interpretation of the response.
Mr. Bossolini stated that if Supervisor Runion received a response it would still be the obligation of the Larned family to negotiate the property transfer.
The gravity of the letter coming from the Town would show the seriousness of the situation.
Councilman Redlich and Grimm asked why the Town should pay for the condemnation proceeding?
Supervisor Runion stated that he would like to get the response from the homeowner and proceed from there.
MOTION #138 Councilman Pastore moved to AUTHORIZE THE SUPERVISOR TO SEND A LETTER TO THE LAST KNOWN OWNER OF THIS PROPERTY BY CERTIFIED MAIL, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED AND TO REPORT TO THE MEMBERS OF THE BOARD AT OUR SEPTEMBER 17, 2009 MEETING WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN A REPLY. Councilman Redlich seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Item #9 on the agenda concerned forwarding the application of Dutchman Acres to the Planning Board for Preliminary Site Plan Review.
Mr. Gregg Meyer, applicant, presenting.
Mr. Meyer stated that they had addressed all the concerns of the Albany County Planning Board from the last public hearing.
Supervisor Runion read a memo from Town Planner, Jan Weston, regarding stormwater management and maintenance. (P 105A) She stated that this re-zone would be a good fit for the area.
He explained that it was up to the Town Board as to whether this parcel should be referred to the Planning Board for a statement of findings.
Councilman Redlich asked about the minimum acreage size for Country Hamlet and whether this project met those standards.
He felt that he could not re-zone if the project did not meet the acreage requirements for a Country Hamlet designation.
In a memo sent by Jan Weston, Town Planner, she stated that this parcel was considered an in-fill and was next to an existing hamlet development.
Mr. Meyer stated that he felt that Guilderland Center was the existing Hamlet referred to.
He further stated that the Town Planner addressed that question and her determination was that it was a good fit.
Mr. Meyer further stated that they were described as an in-fill because they were the entire remaining parcel in the triangle block formed by the three roads in the area.
Discussion was held regarding requirements for the zoning designation of Country Hamlet.
Supervisor Runion stated that the issue was not for a re-zone but to send it to the Planning Board for preliminary site plan approval.
He further stated that the applicant would then have to address a number of other issues brought up by Councilman Redlich.
Councilman Grimm asked if there were any other issues that the applicant should be aware of?
Supervisor Runion stated that there were issues of spot zoning, whether they could be considered a Country Hamlet, stormwater drainage issues and who would be responsible for the stormwater drainage districts.
Mr. Meyer stated that he was under the impression from the last meeting that they were considering a storm water sewer district.
He explained that they would be taking drainage from other residents to their site and taking it to the Black Creek.
Councilman Redlich read the definition of Country Hamlet.
He felt that this did not meet those requirements and that the Board would have to change the code in order to allow this project to proceed. He felt that the applicant could be wasting time and money if it was determined that the project was not in accordance with the Code.
Supervisor Runion stated that the Planning Board had looked at it and felt that it is within the intent of the Code for a Country Hamlet, as did the Town Planner.
This Board has to make a determination if they are to refer it to the Planning Board.
Councilman Redlich stated that zoning should be designating parcels as to what they should be zoned for development.
Supervisor Runion stated that type of zoning goes back to the 1960’s.
This new type of floating zone allows for creativity, better design and “smart growth” technique. Cookie cutter zoning does not fit with the times. The Country Hamlet and Planned Unit developments allow for the “smart growth” techniques.
He further stated that there was perhaps an issue with acreage but the Planner recommended referring it to the Planning Board. He recommended that the applicant speak with the planner and review the questions posed.
He also expressed his concern with the flow from the parcel to the Black Creek and with the acreage needed.
Further discussion was held regarding this issue.
Mr. Meyer stated that he would be returning with answers to the questions posed by the Board regarding drainage into the Black Creek, stormwater management, spot zoning and the question of sufficient acreage for the Country Hamlet designation.
MOTION #139 Councilman Pastore moved THAT THE APPLICATION BE FORWARDED BACK TO THE PLANNING BOARD FOR ITS REVIEW AND PRELIMINARY SITE PLAN REVIEW. Councilwoman Slavick seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Opposed |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Aye |
Councilman Redlich asked, “Does the Town Police Department have an order prohibiting police officers from speaking with Town Board members?”
Supervisor Runion responded, “No, It does not”.
Councilman Redlich asked, “Is there a rule 150 in the police department? What does it say”?
Supervisor Runion stated that he had no idea and asked Councilman Redlich to read it.
Councilman Redlich stated that he did not have it. But that he believed there was a rule 150 that prohibited police officers from speaking with Town Board members.
Supervisor Runion said, “I believe that was the old rule that you released to the media some time ago when the Chief of Police was being interviewed that may have been a rule form the former Chief. I believe the new Chief of Police rescinded that rule”.
Councilman Redlich asked to make a motion.
Supervisor Runion explained that their own rule were done in the Police Department.
Councilman Redlich read Town Law that stated the Town Board has the authority and the duty to provide rules for the Police Department.
Councilman Redlich moved that Police Officers shall be free to speak with Town Board members and the Supervisor. Councilman Grimm seconded the motion.
Supervisor Runion stated that the Police Department has their own internal rules. He was unaware of a rule prohibiting police officers from speaking to the Town Board. He further stated that until he was aware of such a rule, and he did not believe that there was one. He said, “Why would I be adopting something that was totally unnecessary”?
He asked for the name of a Police Officer who wasn’t allowed to discuss a matter with a Town Board member.
Councilman Grimm stated as a matter of policy.
Supervisor Runion asked, “Why would you bring forth this rule unless there was some Police Officer that you feel wasn’t allowed to discuss a matter with a Town Board member?”
Councilman Redlich said, “If a Police Officer had told me that, and there was such a rule, they would be violating the rule, wouldn’t they”?
Supervisor said, “As far as I am concerned there is no such rule. So, what Police Officer indicated that that rule existed”?
Councilwoman Slavick asked, “Where is the Rule?”
Councilman Grimm said there is a motion.
MOTION #140 Councilman Redlich moved THAT POLICE OFFICERS SHALL BE FREE TO SPEAK WITH TOWN BOARD MEMBERS AND THE SUPERVISOR. Councilman Grimm seconded the motion and it was opposed by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Abstained – I didn’t have enough time to even look at this. |
Councilman Pastore |
Opposed “The concern I have is what the Supervisor has stated. We are being asked to vote on a rule for a rule with a supposition that another rule exists. I don’t know if that, in fact, is the case. Councilman Pastore continued by saying, Let’s determine first if there is that rule. I oppose the motion. The reason for my opposition to the motion is, as is typical of certain members of this Board by bringing on this motion, a suggestion that some impropriety that exists already in our Police Department that a rule exist that prohibits Police Officers from discussing matters with members of the Town Board and vice versa. I would first
and foremost like to see that rule. I have nothing in front of me that suggests that rule exists.
If in fact that rule exists, then we will deal with it. But I am not convinced, as I sit here tonight, that that rule exists, so I think making this motion is superfluous and unnecessary, so I am opposed. |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye “ There should be a prohibition, and this should be Town Policy, a prohibition on a gag order on police having an opportunity to speak with the Town Board. That is what this motion is about. Insuring that there is no gag order on police having an opportunity to speak. It is a good policy. It’s a policy that we should be very clear that exists in this Town. I am in favor.”
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Supervisor Runion |
“To my knowledge there is no such rule within the Police Department. Secondly, I was not presented with any information that or provided with the opportunity to do any research through the Police Department as to whether there was such a rule. This was just brought up at 11:35 PM, this evening, five minutes ago, and the allegation were made that there was such a rule, when I don’t believe that there is one. But there have been a lot of allegations made by a couple of members on this Board that have no basis in fact or truth. My feeling is, that before I vote on any type of policy, whether it’s with the Police department or whether it’s a general Town
policy, I want to have the opportunity to, not only know what all of the facts are before I vote, but to have the opportunity to discuss with the department heads and the various personnel that are involved in the decision that I am about to make, what there opinions are concerning that. Just to be presented with this type of motion five minutes before, I think, again, is grandstanding, false accusations, but those seem to be typical these days, particularly in a politically charged climate with several members of the Board that we have this evening. So, I am going to vote no. Now, if Councilman Redlich or Councilman Grimm want to go out and do a little research and find out whether that rule exists and if they want to provide Board members with a copy of it, if those Board members want to give us the opportunity as Town Board members to find out whether there is any rationale for any rules within the Police Department so that we can form some basis in fact for
whether we think the rule is appropriate or inappropriate,
I would be willing to entertain such a matter in the future. But, I would think that it is incumbent on the Board members that want to start throwing rules out for consideration by all of the Board, that they should provide us with some sort of documentation or some sort of materials.
I don’t put items on the Town Board agenda without providing Board members with documentation and materials so that they can look at it and they can look at it and make a reasoned choice. I don’t tell them five minutes before they walk into a room that there is something that they are going to have to vote on. I give them the opportunity to make those calls to the department heads; I give them the opportunity to makes the calls to various town employees that may be able to furnish the proper information so that a Board member can make a reasoned judgement and a reasoned decision on a matter that is before this Board. I find it very irresponsible that a councilman would come in here and just make a motion off the seat of his pants.” |
MOTION #142 Councilman Pastore moved to ADJOURN THE TOWN BORAD MEETING OF AUGUST 18, 2009 AT 11:47 PM. Councilman Redlich seconded the motion and it was carried by the following roll call vote:
Councilman Redlich |
Aye |
Councilwoman Slavick |
Aye |
Councilman Pastore |
Aye |
Councilman Grimm |
Aye |
Supervisor Runion |
Absent |
Respectfully submitted,
Rosemary Centi, RMC
Town Clerk
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