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Board of Finance Minutes 06/17/04 Public Hearing
BOARD OF FINANCE PUBLIC HEARING
MINUTES
JUNE 17, 2004

        I.      CALL TO ORDER – Chairman Tom Harrison called the Meeting to order at 7:00 P.m. in the Community Room, Avon Senior Center.  Present were members Tom Gugliotti, Bill Hooper, Steve McGuff, Mike Monts, Jim Speich and Mark Zacchio.

        II.     PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE - Chairman Harrison opened the meeting by leading the audience in the Pledge of Allegiance.  

Mr. Harrison reported tonight is the last time we will have a meeting like this, this year.  The Town Charter allows us to have three Referenda, we are two down and one to go and that’s scheduled for Monday, June 28th.  After this Public Hearing, the Board of Finance will meet to decide on the actual budget numbers to be recommended to be put on the ballot on June 28th.  If that Referendum is defeated, and I hope to God it isn’t, but if it is, the Court decision decrees it goes to the Town Council to set the budget numbers.  This is really the only time for the voters as a whole to have any direct control over the size of the spending and the tax levies.  He reported the procedure tonight will be to have brief presentations with the usual slides to give the perspectives of the three Boards.  After the defeat of the second referendum, we met with the Town Council and the Board of Education and by a 4 to 3 vote, the Board of Finance decided to recommend a revised budget reducing $193,000 from the spending level, to be taken from the Town Council’s operating budget.  That is not necessarily the number we will recommend, but it is a starting point needed to hold a Public Hearing.

Mr. Harrison called on Dick Hines, Chairman of the Town Council, to make his presentation.  The entire presentation is attached and made a part of these minutes.

The Chairman thanked Mr. Hines, who indicated the decision reached by the Council was unanimous, with all five members approving the Action.

Mr. Harrison called on Chairman Peggy Roell to present the Board of Education’s  efforts for this budget.  Ms. Roell introduced Board of Ed members who were present, Tom McNeill, Mike Egan, Sue Hennebery, Bernadette Mayer, Doug Evans,  __________.  A copy of Ms. Roell’s presentation is attached and made a part of these minutes.

On completion of the Board of Education’s presentation, Mr. Harrison called on Steve McGuff to present the deliberations of the Board of Finance, a copy of which presentation is attached and made a part of these minutes.

The Chairman commented that it’s great to have so many people attending this Public Hearing.  He indicated it would be helpful tonight if you would make suggestions or solutions to this problem rather than just saying we cut too much; don’t cut any more; etc.  We really need help deciding the correct number to have this referendum passed.  If you would like to speak, please stand and raise your hand to make sure I won’t miss your request.  If you have suggestions, please tell us.  Also for the record, please use the microphone and give your name and address.  We’ll try to limit comments to an absolute total of two minutes. He reported that absentee ballots for the June 28th Referendum will be available tomorrow at the Town Clerk’s office if you’re going to be out of Town on that date.

Vern Gresh, 36 Forge Drive:  He compared Avon teacher salaries with those of Farmington, Simsbury and Canton.  Much to his dismay, in the hand-out tonight and the presentation made by the Chairman of the Board of Ed, he finds many figures erroneous, and off by as much as $2,000 in many cases.  He has prepared a presentation and anybody who wants to challenge my figures is welcome to do so.  I have attended the last two budgets and heard some people say it’s too high, it’s too low.  He went to four education offices, Avon, Farmington, Simsbury and Burlington in order to make a comparison of salary schedules.  What I found shocked me!  These are all for the year 2004/2005.  A first year teacher with a Bachelor Degree in Avon makes $40,685; in Farmington he would make $3,873 less, in Simsbury, $4,265 less and in Burlington $7,536 less.  A first year teacher in Avon with a Masters Degree would make $44,847.  This is $5,936 more than in Burlington and in Farmington would be $6,507 more, and in Simsbury $9,425 more than the teacher in Burlington.  A first year teacher with a 6th year in Avon would start at $49,436.  This is $6,683 more than a teacher in Farmington, $8,156 more than a teacher in Simsbury, $11,966 more than a teacher in Burlington.  (Mr. Harrison – you’ve got about 30 seconds, Sir.  Can you submit that paper with those numbers when you’re finished?)  I’ll give you copy. Just to show this whole salary schedule I chose to compare a teacher with 10 years’ experience with a Masters Degree, and if you don’t know, when you become a teacher to get a Masters Degree, you’ve got about 5 years, and I think it was extended to 10 years.  In Avon, $53,835.  This is $9, 865 higher than Farmington, $11,575 higher than Simsbury, and $10,950 higher than Burlington.  I cannot wonder if this type of spending extends to other areas in your education costs.  In my opinion, if there is not enough money to purchase other school supplies, the Board of Education should not be planning to spend ……  Although nothing can be done about the present contract, it is hoped that the next contract negotiations will be conducted in such a way to bring these salaries in line with those of our surrounding Towns.  Thank you.

Mr. Harrison, I understand you are relying on what I said – the same precedent as the last time.  You’ve bent the deadline, about 10 seconds over, but Thank You.

Ms. Rell,  Mr. Gresh, Dr. Kisiel has all the contracts in his office, so maybe tomorrow or next week you can come in and (Mr. Gresh:  I don’t have to, I have the contracts right here from Farmington, Burlington and Simsbury – also Avon.)  

Dr. Kisiel:  No one’s questioning your comments.  I just can’t believe, based on the same information that I looked at, that you and I come up with such different results, but I’d be very, very happy to compare with your figures and the Board of Education’s contracts that our Board is using during negotiations.  (Mr. Gresh:  I can give you one example out of the book, in Farmington you have a Masters Degree - ? In Farmington you have a teacher with a Masters Degree starting Salary at $41,780.  That figure is $39, 751)

Dr. Kisiel, I understand.  Farmington starts it’s salary schedule which begins with 0.  In other words, our salary schedule begins with step 1, they have a different structure to their salary schedule.  We know exactly what you’re talking about.  Simsbury doesn’t have the same salary schedule as Farmington does.  It’s just _________

Mr. Harrison:  Dr. Kisiel has asked you, at your convenience, to come in and compare notes and Dr. Kisiel, maybe you could post something on the school board’s web site to respond to that.  That way everybody here could see … I don’t think this is the place, Mr. Gresh and Dr. Kisiel will be very happy to look and see what you’ve got and see where the two of you differ.  Is that acceptable?

Dotty Magda, as Crestwood Drive:  Actually this gentleman did me a great favor because he’s a perfect segue into the questions I have for you.  What areas and expertise do you want us to come in and help you with?  What are you looking for?  What can we do?  You say that we’ve got to start now.  This one is over.  Whether we vote it in or out, the third time, we have no choice after that.  If we say no, it’s your discretion.  We’ve got to start thinking about next year, now.  Where do you want us to be to help you.  Since probably 90% of us have pencils and papers, how about a phone number where we can call to sign up to do what you need.  Thank You.

Mr. Harrison:  I can perhaps respond for the Board to that perspective – then perhaps one of the other Boards would like to comment.  The first way to start, as Steve McGuff identified, that all three Boards meet regularly during the year, most of the time there’s very little public participation at the meetings although they discuss major issues.  As a result of this year’s budget process and the message you’ve sent us, Peggy Roell, Dick Hines and I agreed once this budget is in place by whatever method, we’re going to meet within a couple of weeks after then and identify the issues that you’ve talked about.  For example, one thing people talked about is sharing some services on a greater level with the Town and the Board of Education.  I think both Dick and Peggy have said that’s something they want to look at very carefully.  You can check on the web site when the meeting dates are and provide input on each issue, where we can work together to share some services.  I think the chief thing is not to just come to meetings the last two months of the process.  The dates and times of the meetings are on the Town web site and I think that’s a good starting point.  You can e-mail messages; we’ve been getting messages on the budget process – you can e-mail your ideas or saying what you can do to get the public to help, and all those will be responded to.  That’s a start.

Tom Gugliotti, Board of Finance.  Mrs. Magda, I just want to express the following to you.  I take a slightly different view from Tom’s invitation to all of you to help us.  The invitation, as I take it is basically – you folks’ shouldn’t be called upon to do what the professionals do.  By professionals, I don’t mean this Board or that Board, by professionals I mean Phil Schenck on the Town’s side and Dr. Kisiel on the Board of Ed side and their staffs which, by the way, are really very helpful.  They are the professionals who should bring ideas to all of us.  First of all of us on the Board of Finance, the Town Council and the Board of Ed and we share that with you.  What we need from you, perhaps on a more timely basis, Ma’am, is your opinion.  What is it that you want Avon to be?  I don’t think it’s fair for us to dump on to you A) help us figure out how to beat this intricate finance process that’s involved when we build a new school.  That’s something the professionals have to do, with even outside folks, bankers etc.  We’re not asking you how to better finance a school building or how to better finance or come up with the money for a new Police Officer.  What we need from you earlier perhaps than we get it, is your opinions.  Your opinion on what you want Avon to be is important because we could literally spend as much money as you want or as little money as you want and then you get the Town that comes out of that.  The definition of what Avon is, has been, and will become is a function of what your opinion is as to what you all collectively want us to do.  We’re all trying very hard, these are difficult times, we’re all learning to find that equilibrium.  I suggest what we want from you folks, at least from my viewpoint, is your opinion.  What do you want Avon to be?  Where do you want us to get to?  Then, at the polls, are we all doing a good job in producing value for dollar?  If you’re going to tell us we’re spending too much then we have to find ways to cut it.  You may tell us we’re not providing a very good Town, roads are going to the dickens, there’s too many pot holes, what happened.  What we need is your opinion before all these meetings come about.  You’re all invited to all the Town meetings.  Let us all know what you want Avon to be.

Claire Henderson, 1 Keystone Circle.  Following the last Referendum, I did e-mail the Board of Finance, Tom, Phil Schenck, Dick Hines and did offer some suggestions.  The first being that I felt that the tax increase should be, following the leading economic indicator, I happened to use the Cost of Living and Social Security, I do believe under 3% would be an appropriate number.  Secondly, I came up with some suggestions that I felt be followed by the Town Council and the Board of Ed in trying to consolidate, as was just mentioned, some areas – finance, maintenance – I also suggested they also consider sharing a teaching too, regionally, I personally feel that students that are in our very, very tiny classes in High School have culture shock when they’re in an auditorium, theatre style, of 300 students at the university level.  They do not know how to compete, they do not know how to get attention and I think we need to look at this.  I really do feel the Board of Finance has an obligation to present a budget to the Town which will pass.  I think that is something that I have heard it’s members say, I don’t think that happens.  I do think you need to be under 3% and I don’t think it needs to come out of the Town Council’s budget as they have suggested to you, despite what Mrs. Roell said and I appreciate everything that has to be done by mandate; I do think that we need to take a risk and think about doing things differently.  That $100,000 shortfall is really a rounding error out of 33 million dollars.  You need to take more risks, more has to come out of the Board of Education.  I think that, in fact, is what the voters are saying.  

Arleen Greenstein, 41 Fox Den Road:  First of all, a suggestion.  We consider it a good turnout if 40% of the voters show up.  We really have 60% of the voters not voting and this does not constitute a mandate from either side because of that.  We really need to change to get more voters out.  Everybody in this Town needs to come to the polls and vote on this project, not just vocal minorities.  I would like to hear from the Board of Ed, the success of the “leave no child behind” act.  I was down at the Board of Ed last week trying to get some figures on that; I don’t know if everybody knows what this act is all about.  It was voted in 2002 – the financial affects are considerable, I don’t think Avon gets much in the way of reimbursement for the mandated conditions of this act – it’s a nationwide problem.  All the Towns and cities across the nation are feeling the affects.  Can you educate us about how this act is affecting the Avon system?  Finally, for this act and for Special Education services, what is the level of reimbursement that Avon gets from the State and Federal governments?  I don’t think it’s very much.  Can we lobby our legislators or our State Senators, or national offices to try to increase the funding so that we can meet the needs of our kids?  Educating these kids is not only mandated by law, it’s also the right thing to do.

Dr. Kisiel:  Avon public schools is not what is called a “title 1 district” meaning that we don’t have a large portion of children who have reading and language arts disabilities.  Not in Special Education, but in regular education.  As a result, since we don’t get any funding, the requirements of the “no child left behind” act, in terms of teachers, paraprofessionals, support, education, etc. have to apply to Avon.  I’m not talking about “special” education, I’m talking about no child left behind pertains to all children whether they’re in special education or in the regular education program.  The only requirement that we’re faced with is a requirement coming through the Federal Government and even magnified by the State Government and that is how are information about students, everything about our students, including their performance on report cards, their performance in attendance, their testing results need to be reported back to the State Board of Education in a very coherent fashion.  We have in the district right now, five separate data bases; we have to combine those and in our budget the only expense we have is to incorporate a new, sophisticated data basis, so we can get that information back to the State in a timely fashion.  Down the road is another story because every year every district in the State, including Avon, is expected to show increased student achievement.  If we don’t continue to face continued student achievement, despite our high levels of achievement to date, we will begin to lose other State and Federal revenues.  Other Town money that may be available to us we could lose our funds if we don’t maintain a certain level of achievement.  Accountability to improve never goes away.  I hate to tell you this but this legislation lasts for 13 years and based on data that’s coming out right now, in 13 years, I hate to say this, all schools will fail because no child will be able to reach the levels that the present administration expects today, it’s unrealistic.  So, in the long line, we’ll all pay.  Hopefully the short line will continue, that’s my objective, my responsibility, to make sure the children continue to maintain a high level of performance and not fall behind.  I think there’s a point where we all will, and at that point, all of us will face the financial crisis that will develop.  Right now, it’s not there.  I’m going to throw a number out because I don’t have a budget book before me, but I’m estimating the special education will receive about a half million dollars plus some title funding or staff development and some equipment purchase, I’m talking in a range of about $25,000 to $30,000.  There is some money that comes in and that money is included in our budget proposal, it’s also included as revenue that the Town expects to receive.  

Valerie Ferro, 80 Daventry Hill:  As an opining comment, I really don’t endorse the use of national indices as a local budget indicator.  Simply, because of that we know Connecticut and in particular, Avon is different from the national indices.  It’s also hard to find the correct methodology to make that work so I think we’re really grasping at straws here.  I do endorse this budget, I endorsed all three budgets; I think that this is a fairly compromised budget and I think we really need to move on.  Recently the last few weeks working with other towns, there was one specific instance where we were talking about roads and debates and budgets and someone on the Commission mentioned we’ve got to work this out because we don’t want to be another Avon.  I wanted to crawl under the table.  They didn’t know where I was from but probably from my face they could tell it is close by.  I think it’s really time for all of us to somehow work this through and move into this process.  I’ve got a couple of ideas, public comments, first of all I just want to talk a little about growth.  We now have residential growth that has tipped the scales in this Town.  We are no longer in a situation from a tax based standpoint that commercial taxes can account for residential growth index.  It’s too late.  We can never go back, so forget about balancing, we now just have to manage.  We can do that through appropriate zoning regulations.  The zoning regulations namely that development on topography will not prohibit development, it will give non-developers the right to develop.  We will simply set the conditions upon a developer will develop.  By doing that we will slow the rate of development, it will allow us to catch our breath and hopefully manage the school age population that is really out of control.  We need to start looking at that.  We’ve been talking about this for 7 or 8 years, we’ve really gone over the top, but we’ve got to do this and we’ve got to do it soon and there are clearly techniques defensible legally and physically defensible techniques out there for us to do this.  We have to look at that.  Secondly is revaluation.  I’m not sure our position of full steam ahead is working; I know people want to delay this budget by a month, a year, two years because we’ve got to redo this process even if it’s painful.  My position is if we step back for 30 days, 60 days, it will allow us to get a consultant back in to allow us do a ________on this.  My analyses are showing serious, serious inconsistencies, all over the range.  I think there’s a room full of people who can cite their assessments and I’m not seeing a consistent evaluation like I see in other Towns, so I think this could be a serious problem and I think should just take a breath here and double check our methodology after consultant, I don’t know how much it would be, but we need to step back and review this methodology.  There is still time and if anything this revaluation basically dismantled the budget process and completely eliminated any amount of positive dialogue.  Last but not least, I think you and everyone  of the elected officials need to get to know us.  Let me start by making a few tidbits; a quick analysis of U S Census data is available anywhere right now.  We have 6,176 households, 15% of our 16,000 people are over the age of 65.  1,200 households posted retirement incomes a median of $26,400.  1,566 households posted social security income median of $13,269.  20 households are on public assistance.  The State income average is $52,935, the county was $50,756 and Avon is around $90,000 – that is the median.  Avon’s mean income is $131,914.  Going through these demographics you will get to know us and I think if you’re going to establish a position on the budget the haves and have-nots, who can afford and who cannot, who can afford but won’t, next year if you get someone to go through the data, you will have at least a frame of reference that’s defensible and that’s census will pinpoint the location of who lives where.  When you come back next year, at least you’ll know who you are working with.

Myrna Gresh, 36 Forge Drive:  I’ve attended the last two budget meetings and I’ve come to many budget meetings in Avon; I’ve lived here 42 years.  This year we were told at one of the meetings, and I read in the Hartford Courant that it is not good for us to keep voting down the budget because it made us not have as good a bond rating and also the referenda cost the Town money.  Towards this end, I would like to ask if you have ever considered doing what I think many Towns and communities throughout the country have done and they give an age somewhere between to 65 and 70 and people  who have lived in their homes for many years, a freeze on taxes at a certain point.  Although this may seem at first like a loss to the Town, if you think that seniors who cannot afford to pay taxes would probably sell their homes and perhaps people with 2 or 3 children, the seniors have no children in public schools, so they are a relative small drain on Town services.  A person with 2 or 3 children is taking $20,000 or $30,000 out of the Town and certainly their real estate taxes are not going to cover that.  I’m asking if you have ever considered anything like this or would you look into anything like this and if not, why not.

Dick Hines:  This past year we’ve looked at the whole programs that we have.  We have quite a few programs that are State sponsored and Town sponsored for senior citizens.  I think we had about 60 people participate last year.  We increased those numbers considerably this year at Town expense.  There is quite a bit available, part State subsidized, part Town subsidized; there’s also a rental program where people get a benefit from the State that’s administered by the Town.  Go down and see the Social Service Dept and he can give you that kind of information.  There’s quite a bit being done there.  If you want to go all the way to freeze the salaries, you’ll end up like California and that could be a disaster.

Mr. Harrison introduced the Board of Finance Chair from Granby who is here tonight trying to avoid any publicity.  Mike, would you just stand up and wave?  (Applause)

Pam Samol, 24 Foxcroft Run:  I was in the Avon Assessor’s office today and I heard wonderful things about you, Mike, and throughout the whole year and saying how is this done in the past, what are you going to do there, well that means another mill raise, etc.  I have a question, does the overall increase in the budget of 4.39% include the half million dollars that we are spending?  (Yes, it will be shown as revenue of $500,000 from the General Fund undesignated balance.)  I’m still not clear here, do we have an extra half million dollars to cover that is not going to come out of ….  

Mr. Harrison:  Absolutely not, this is a one-year only solution so we have to make up, it will either by overspending or taxing.  It’s about 3/10 of a mill.  The true numbers were given in the presentations – if the budget that was proposed tonight is adopted and goes to a referendum and if it is approved, combined spending for education, Town, debt service, things related to the Grand List.  If all this occurs, the spending this year will be $2,362,140 more than the spending in the budget that ends this June 30th.  That percentage of spending, the 2.3 million, that’s a 4.39% increase on combined spending.  That is being met by a combination of $500,000 from surplus and the mill rate, income from investments, grants, reimbursements, but that’s what the spending level involves.

Ms. Samol:  Another question I have is it seems to me when we did the expansion/renovations of the high school, there was a study done on whether a savings could be achieved by having the Town take over certain maintenance which is currently being handled in the school budget.   I thought there could be some savings to the Town, but that’s because the school board felt they could do a better, that would stay in the school budget.  Has there been any further consideration of how the Town might take over some of that?

Mr. Hines:  That study showed that there was no substantial savings if the Town took over the maintenance of the schools.  And if the school put more money into the maintenance, it  would still be more effective.  To date, since we looked at it, that’s still the case.  There’s no obvious savings by putting the two together at this point.

Flo Stahl, 2 Sunset Trail:  Thank you Tom, members of the Board, the problem, ladies and gentlemen, that we’re having in Avon agreeing on a budget is not an isolated issue.  There’s a great debate going on in this Country, not just in Avon.  Let’s put this in perspective; and it’s not whether people want to pay property taxes, of course we know we have to pay property tax.  I’ve lived in this Town for over 35 years, and I paid property tax.  We don’t have to pay property tax.  It has to do with the cost of public education and the drain it places on other municipal resources.  It’s not unique to Avon.  We didn’t invent the problem.  It’s been simmering for years.  Hundreds of books have been written, articles published, legislation enacted, speeches made attacking, defending, we’ve heard it all.  Well, now here we are face to face with it in our home Town.  Because,  like it or not, education costs will reach a boiling point, another couple of hundred here, your taxes added to another couple of hundred there compounded year after year and you’re talking real money here.  The impact is true Draconian and in the long run unhealthy for every community, not just Avon.  Ladies and gentlemen this cannot be the bitter harvest of universal free education; it wasn’t meant to happen this way.  Educating Avon’s children must not be felt in even the thought, let alone the fact, of displacing one of it’s residents for lack of resources to pay their property tax.  What do we want, we want Avon to be inclusive, we can do nothing and have a replay of this year after year, but we are not helpless.  Spending can be reduced, salaries can be contained and an honest attempt can be made toward greater efficiencies.  All it requires is the will and it has to start somewhere, sometime.  Avon is proud of its history and the lovely Town and we can make even greater history if Avon becomes the vanguard of a new approach, a redistribution of resources that doesn’t take away but enriches.  Thank you all very much.

Dan O’Connell, 123 Juniper Drive:  I’m a senior this year at Avon High School, but I also bring an interesting perspective to the table.  Not only am I in the school system, but I’ve also been involved with a lot of different educational organizations outside of the school system.  In addition to having gone to the Board of Ed meetings for the past few years, I’m also currently on the Student Advisory Council to the State Board of Education.  Through that, I’ve gotten to meet with a lot of very influential people including doctors and researchers from a lot of major universities,  Education Commission Sternberg and, in fact Governor Rowland earlier this year.  Two of the thingsthat come up continuously in this whole conversation about how the schools succeed.  One important part is the teacher/student connection.  We talk about class sizes and that has a lot of effect on how  you learn in the classroom.  I know that it’s hard to get the attention you need in a class of 24, it’s hard to ask questions in class that size.  Someone came up earlier and talked about culture shock going into college.  Well, no school provides 300 kids, so everybody who goes to college goes through culture shock in that situation.  Part of the accreditation process, which is basically having an outside organization say that a school system provides credible education, part of their approval is the fact that kids have more than one adult in the school, other than a guidance counselor, that they can connect to on a personal level.  The teachers are responsible for 125 to 150 students a day – it’s impossible to form that kind of connection that’s required by this organization.  The second big important part of the successful school system is apathy.  I think you feel in the school system right now that when you have referendum after referendum being rejected, you have 80% of the cuts coming from schools, it feels like there is a major lack of support for the schools.  I know that some people say …..(applause)… and that has an effect on how every kid who goes into that school building, every teacher that goes into that school building, not thinking that everybody else in the Town thinks that what they’re doing is good.  I really just felt so terrible sometimes after reading the papers and seeing these votes, because it really does feel like people in the Town don’t care about me.  

William Neff, 454 Country Club Road:  A survey was done to determine if there was any possible way to reduce taxation to the residents.  They found that by going with the pay to play concept, they were able to make some considerable cuts in the taxation.  I wanted to find out why or if that’s being considered.  The other item is looking forward, we’ve all touched briefly on the subject of negotiations with the teachers’ union.  We’re not here to go through that, if you listen to the radio and hear of the problems in some other Towns, some of them have gone through nine and ten referenda.  Right there in the presentations you appoint out that average salary increases are 2.57% and yet for the past few years, the teachers in our Town, unlike what the youngster just said, I don’t know if the teachers should be going into the schools feeling downhearted because they were getting a salary increase considerable higher than the local indices indicate.  It’s certainly more of a guaranteed pay that I ever got in my 30 years in the insurance industry.  I’d like to hope that before we go to negotiations, that they step up and come up with some kind of a realistic idea of what salary increases should be.  Merit increases will probably never fly with the union but some kind of a level is needed that is more in keeping with what the rest of us in the community in this economy have had to deal with.

Ms. Roell:  The Board of Ed did investigate pay to play 3 or 4 months ago, and had information from other Towns around Connecticut, some of which had implemented pay to play and many decided that the costs of implementing that was more than the money they collected.  Also, we had a big discussion about whether or not interscholastic activities, athletics, were part of the overall school program like they’ve been for many, many years and the decision was made that at this point we are not going to implement pay to play.  As far as net savings go, it would be about 45 to 50 thousand dollars.  As far as teacher contracts go, the contract that was negotiated three years ago, the 4% increase that our teachers got was the average with 40 or so Towns that negotiated three years ago.  Unfortunately, 9/11 happened and things have changed since three years ago, but we are aware of what increases are these days.

Monte Hopper, 98 Stony Corners Circle:  In case you don’t know, I am a senior citizen.  I’m also in favor of this budget.  I have no children in school, nor grand children, but I am in favor of this budget.  I cannot imagine a worse scenario than having the budget turned down a third time and having the Town Council set the budget.  I don’t think the Town Council wants to be put in that position.  I know that the Town Charter provides for that, you have to bring an end to it somewhere, obviously, but to me, that is not the Democratic way of doing things.  Having said that, I want to say a couple of other things.  I think the State of Connecticut is socialistic enough for us not to attempt in the Town of Avon to pick out certain people to get tax benefits because they are old or they have been here a long time.  That is not my way of doing things.  Finally, let me say there’s been talk here tonight about reducing teacher salaries; those of you who want to reduce teachers’ salaries have to be aware that these salaries are negotiated, they are negotiated between the school board and the unions.  There is a law in Connecticut that says binding arbitration takes place if there is a disagreement between the Board of Education and the teachers.  Quite frequently the teachers will win that argument.  Those of you who are not in favor, and I’m not saying I’m one of those who are not in favor of higher teachers’ salaries should go to the legislature and get that darn law changed.  It is burdening every school district in this State.  In addition, there is also another law called “prevailing wage” which means that any school project, any municipal project in the State of Connecticut has to pay union wages to build those projects and that adds probably half again as much of its costs for those projects.  Do something about that, folks, don’t just sit here and blame the school board and Town Council, because their hands are tied.  Having said that, I hope we vote this budget as it stands.

Dick Hines:  Monte, I totally agree with your comments.  Last night the upside is the Board of Finance, Board of Education and Town Council met with Canton and our State Legislator Kevin Witkos.  I gave him a two-page list of things and binding arbitration is on the top of that.  That’s where costs are really hitting us, the enrollment numbers are secondary because we can take care of that by construction and education teachers.  We tried to get improvements this past year by upping the limit, but we haven’t had any luck.  The people you need to talk with are the legislators, the Kevin Sullivans, Maura Lyons, those that are opposed to even considering this.  We tried to get binding arbitration  up for discussion – they wouldn’t even consider it.  

Chris Moore, 21 Foxcroft:  I just want throw the Board of Finance a bone, here.  I just don’t like, I’m disappointed that we haven’t listened to you, as well as to me.  You’re elected, your representatives of the Town, you’re trying to find a budget that will pass and a budget that’s fair and a budget that meets everyone’s needs.  You’re more knowledgeable than 98% of the people voting, because you do this and you have the paper work and Steve McGuff and you should be in a position to know or to make a decision as a group of seven of what’s best for our Town.  As a result of that, I voted yes because you guys told me that you felt it was the best thing we could get.  I respect the no voter and the no voter has slapped the Board twice and I respect that.  As you sit and try to balance this thing I just think you did a fair job, you did your best.  I wish more people would support you.  I’m disappointed that they didn’t; I think the Boards, the Town Council, everybody is out for the best for this Town and disagreements are fine, they’re healthy but I just want to say “thank you” to the Board and I hope it passes on the 28th.

Sam Levine, 98 Cotswold way:  First of all I want to thank you all for your outstanding presentations this evening – I think your approach to this process is ……..  I thought the Board of Ed could not have been any clearer on what their needs are and what their requirements were and what’s legal and what’s not legal.  I think there is something that we need to address, I think that you need to look to why half this Town did not vote.  As I’ve been driving all over Town,  the only notice that I personally had of this was when I passed the Senior Center one day and I passed Fisher Meadows at another point.  And beyond that in a little blurb in the paper, I got irritated.  I also think that you have 50% of the population that you have not reached and I think that you need to step up your efforts to reach those people because I think the outcome, the potential would be a lot different.  One of the things I found over my years work with A.C.E. is that the Town sort of had an uneven handed allocation.  I know one year we had a sign on our yard that said “vote yes” and we got calls that we had to move those signs 10’ away from the road and later that was recanted.  Another time we were trying to hand out literature at Fisher Meadows and we were told we could not, but that was OK for others to hand out literature at the dump.  After that that process changed and also I think your PTO’s are unhearalded in this community, I think that each and every one of you should thank them every day because they are the only ones that get any information out to the parents in the community and coming from a PTO it’s not the same as your community  leaders.  It’s not the same.  I think you really need to reach out to the parents and get these people out.  I think that finally the other thing is that tonight you all seem very together and very united and it’s a beautiful thing to see, but I’ve noticed over the last few referenda that the wrangling between the Town and the Board of Ed and the Board of Finance has been unbearable.  It was enough that at that last Board of Finance meeting that I was unable to get rest last week because I was so disturbed and upset with the lack of leadership in this Town.  I thought the way you handled yourselves was frightening, I thought that the way that you consistently undermined each other was so disturbing to me and that until you all back each other up, present a unified front and you really portray what you are trying to do for this Town, you’re not going to get anywhere.  Finally, regarding Mr. Gugliotti’s comment about the road, if they get bumpy, if they get ruined, then at some point we’re going to have to fix them, I say that’s fine if we have a bumpy road or if we have a sewer that needs repaired or whether you have a library that doesn’t order books, I say that does not apply when you’re dealing with education and the children in our schools.  They are there and they are learning for such a short period of their lives, this is our future generation and that when you don’t take a leadership position and you don’t, in unity, say this is the most important thing in our community, in our planet, in our world for future generations, you will never see improvements.  Finally I think it’s also …… that Mr. Hines has expanded that program for people in the community that cannot afford, I think that he has gone forward in the right direction into getting those people in the community and trying to reach them and I think that as a community our first most important step is to reach those people who are at the edge, who are at the toughest point in this community, you need to reach out to those, make sure those people are okay and from there we go on.  But until you all sort of act together and back each other in a very potent manner, I don’t think that will happen.  But I thank you for the presentations tonight, I support the budget and one more thing, I would suggest also that you reinstate getting that police officer back on the board and that you take the $130,000 that the Board of Ed saved out of health benefits and reinstate that back to the Board of Ed’s budget to take care of the $105,000 in debt.

Mr. Harrison:  On Sam’s point about the voter turnout, I don’t disagree at all.  I mean I’m very pleased in the last two years even though these have been defeated, but we’ve gone from a 25% to a 35% last year to almost 45% the first time this year.  It’s trending in the right direction.  I’d love to see it up in the high 90’s and I’ve said that many times.  It is somewhat frustrating that we don’t get more people to vote.  All three Boards put together I think well prepared presentations.  But what we have here, 200 people? Out of 16,000 people in Town or 10,000 registered voters – I don’t know what we have to do to get more people to come out.  In a Democracy there are some obligations on the citizens to be informed and pay attention and exercise their right to vote.  I’d love to see it up in the high 90’s if not 100%.  We’re open to suggestions, I know the Town puts out a Newsletter announcing the numbers yet we have people e-mail me and say I don’t know what the numbers are.  Two years ago we had people saying they didn’t know there was going to be a referendum, even though we had sent out a mailing to everybody in the Town with the dates.  I’d love to see it go up, we’re going to keep working at it – I hope it doesn’t end up getting defeated every year, but the turnout increase, I think it’s trending in the right direction.  The other comment, I would respectfully disagree with your use of the word rancor – we have 21 individuals on the three boards, they are all people with their own background and experience, biases, interests, pet peeves, I think it would be unnatural if all 21 of us were in 100% agreement.  The level of cooperation, the level of respect is very high.  We have very good direction with the Board of Education, Peg and I have had more conversations this year; Dick Hines and I had many words, e-mailed each other, circulated information between the three Boards.  It may not always appear at the workshops, but remember the workshops are just that.  That’s where we hash out differences, but in terms of working for the Town, I don’t think rancor is the word that I would use.  I think healthy debate and discussion, but we really do work together.  I think the relations are very good.  We know from the fact that you defeated two referenda this year that we do have to do some thinking about changing the Town.  We’re going to do that; the three of us are going to meet in programs will come from that.  We’re working, we’re not perfect, we’re as human as everybody else in the world.  I do think there is a very high level of respect and cooperation and we’ll try to make it better.

Gregory Berg, 31 Old Wood Road:  I’ve been here in Avon with my family for 17 years.  Most of you know that Old Wood Road is in the Stony Corners area where we have experienced  perhaps the highest increases due to the reval.  I’m certainly sensitive to the increases in home values and the affect that has on taxes.  We have two children in the school system, they’ve come up through Pine Grove and Thompson Brook and Avon Middle School and now Avon High School so we’ve certainly had an opportunity in our 17 years to experience the school system.  Earlier in my career, I actually worked in a form of government, I spent six years with the Connecticut Conference of Municipalities and I can really sympathize with you sitting up there staring at all these faces, going to all the night meetings and doing all the hard work, too.  So, thank you very much for that.  I’m going to be brief, I just have a couple of point, first I’m here to speak in support of actually restoring the $900,000 that has been previously been cut from the Board of Ed budget.  If there’s one point I can make, I think we need to give the $900,000 back to the children of Avon.  I don’t like this notion that we’re backing up at every step in the process.  We shouldn’t forget that the mill rate is actually going down and the reason the mill rate is going down is because homes prices have gone up.  There’s no getting around the fact that everybody who owns property in this Town has seen the value of that property go up and for the most part has seen the value of that property go up by a lot.  Not all of us are going to sell our property in the short term, but every person that owns property here someday will take value out of that sale, either the person who owns it today, or their heirs and there’s a reason why those property values have gone up.  The reason they’ve gone up is because this is a very attractive community to live in.  I’m a corporate executive in Hartford, I do a lot of hiring, a lot of recruiting, I see a lot of people who are making choices on whether or not to come into Connecticut and especially once they have decided, making choices on which community to live in.  I can tell you Avon, Glastonbury, Simsbury, Farmington are considered the most prestigious communities in Hartford County.  In fact, they are competing with Wilton, Greenwich, New Canaan because these are the best schools in the State.  In fact, they are among the best schools in the country.  I talk to people all the time to have come in from States around the United States and they come in and do their homework and they end up here in Avon.  I could name three in just the last couple of months.  So the mill rate is going down because the values are going up.  We’re all going to benefit from that, we’re all going to take that value out someday.  The second point I’d like to make sort of echoes comments made by previous speakers.  Consider the profile of the Town; there’s no getting around the fact that the per capita income here over $60,000, the average household income is over $100,000, the average selling price on a new home is over $700,000.  The average resale of a home is over $400,000.  There’s no getting around the fact that this is an upper middle income highly prestigious suburb in the wealthiest state in the nation.  We can afford a 5% tax increase.  The last point I’d like to make is, and this is somewhat speculative, but there is a possibility that more than a majority of the people who have not voted yet are actually in favor of the budget.  Obviously that is total speculation, but it is a possibility.  If all of you are elected officials obviously have an obligation to represent all of the individuals in the Town, not just those who have voted in referendum and I would suggest to you that there’s a lot of people in Town who would really prefer to see the first budget approved.

Michelle Lehrer St.Andrews, 20 Thistle Hollow:  We’ve lived in Avon for 10 years.  My position on the Town is Avon should be the kind of Town where my children, who are now in High School would be proud to come back to after they graduate.  We have a wonderful school system here and we have wonderful kids like Dan who spoke so eloquently before; I would be thrilled if my kids, after they finish college would come back and be citizens of Avon and serve on the Boards and be proud to members of this Town.  I hate to see the whole budget process be carried on the backs of our administrators and the teachers, many of whom are our friends, our neighbors, our children’s parents, I think it’s not very fair to finger point at them when they are the people we trust with our children.  My last point is that it may be rather unsaid that a lot of the fund raising that goes on in the Town of Avon by our very capable PTOs, our Booster Clubs, it may be unfair to say the people who have children in the schools utilize a lot of the services.  A lot of us do have kids in the schools who put out an awful lot of money to provide some of the things the Board of Ed is not capable of providing for the schools because of budgetary constraints.  Back to my vision of Avon, I’d like to see this a Town where everybody works together for the mutual benefit of everyone, for senior citizens, for our kids, who work together for the good of the community.  Thank You.

Bonnie ____:  I don’t have any children in the school system; I’ve lived in Avon about a year and I am for the budget.  Actually I was for the last one and the previous one.  Children are our future.  Are we willing to invest in them?  I hear about elimination of enrichment programs, old text books, not updating computers and I don’t know if this is the school system that I really want to perpetuate.  These things are very important.  Home values are tied to school systems and a good school system will benefit everyone, whether or not you have children in the school system.  I take a look at some of the numbers, what the last mill rate was versus the proposed mill rate that we’re looking at now.  If the assessment on your home is at $300,000, I think we’re talking less than $60.00 a year in a tax increase or a tax reduction going from the last mill rate due to the new proposal.  I don’t think $60.00 a year is going to break anyone’s bank account.  I don’t know if it’s worth making cuts for $60.00 a year; I would like to see some of the money restored to the Board of Education.  If you take a look at your taxes, if you pay $10,000 in taxes and there is a 2% tax increase, we’re talking $300.00 a year.  I think we’re missing the big picture.  We’re talking about a philosophy, but looking at the dollars and cents, we’re really talking about a small amount.  It’s really not a lot whether it’s $300.00 at 3% or $400.00 at 4%, if people are against the budget because they are against higher taxes, they will vote it down anyway.  I guess I would like to see the Board, if necessary, set the mill rate which is the lowest in the area and we should stand up and support our Board of Education.  We should support the Town Offices which are woefully inadequate, and I think we need to spend the money that we need to spend.

Gene Bourquin, 150 Winding Lane:  I’ve lived and worked in Avon for over 25 years and I’ve had the opportunity to see the Town grow and flourish during that time.  We have an excellent school system, police force, fire department, recreation facilities and library.  The Town Officials may have changed over the years, but all of them have brought expertise and tireless devotion to their jobs.  They listen to what residents want, they’re also aware of the needs of the Town.  It troubles me greatly that there appears to be a growing division among Town residents and a lack of trust in the ability of our elected and appointed officials.  When you elect or hire people with a proven track record in management operations, you need to give them your input and then trust them to do what’s in the best interest of the Town and not micro-manage their decisions.  We are at a point during the current budget dilemma that this appears to be happening.  The Board of Ed, Board of Finance and Town Council have worked diligently to present a budget that reflects the needs of the Town and the wishes of the residents.  It’s time that we stand behind their decisions so that the critical Town and Education needs are not eroded any further.  I urge all of you to support a budget that maintains the services that we’ve all come to expect and appreciate.  The tax dollars we pay for this is a most worth-while investment.  Pay it.

Mr. Harrison:  If you will permit me, one of the reasons why we do have an excellent school system is because of the expertise and dedication that you have devoted to that system.

Linda Merlin, 28 Highgate Drive:  No one gets to say no to taxes except at a local level and here in Avon, they truly do, twice.  This is no longer about education or how your far your tax dollars will go, it’s about the kind of Town you want to live in, the kind of Town you want Avon to be.  The message that you’re hearing is that the majority of voters want to live in this Town without paying for it.  The problem is that that kind of Town provides insufficient services and I hope that’s not the direction that you, the Board of Finance,
or the Town Council, if you get to that point, lets us go.   The Town Council looked at its budget and offered what it can tolerate, the Board of Education has already reached what it can tolerate, and while many of you don’t want to believe that, when Bill Hooper says there’s nothing left to cut as he did last week, it’s really time to believe it.  About 20% of the voters or less voted on that last vote; nearly 18% - 20% supported higher budgets, 55% - 60% don’t participate at all.  You can probably translate that to complacency and contentment to the way things area.  There is no band aid to go lower than recommended at this hearing and I hope they will stick with the numbers presented here in the best interest of us all.  I know you don’t go into the back room and make drastic cuts after this meeting, I know when I pull the yes lever at the next referendum, I really won’t be doing it to benefit me; I’d rather take the $60.00 or more a year or whatever it is, to have more services.   What I will do for the benefit of this Town, and I hope every one else will, too, no matter how the votes fell at the last two referenda, is support the number the Boards recommend.

Richard Connell, 207 Hollister Drive:  I just want to thank all the Boards for all the tireless work that they’ve done.  I think in particular I want to thank the Town Council for doing more than what the Board of Finance asked for; I think you were trying to reach the vote of the citizens, the only ones you can listen to are the ones who get out and vote and I think
in terms of those that didn’t vote you did try to listen.  I would love to have seen the school board to consider even further cuts but I’m going to vote for whatever the Board of Finance recommends so it can pass this next referendum.

Jane Ellen Peregrin, 67 Cottswold Way:  I hear many here tonight talking about the reasons they moved to Avon was for a certain quality of life.  It was certainly that that attracted me many years ago.  I think a couple of weeks ago, Bud Herrmann chastised the Council for not knowing the residents, and I think he was addressing an issue that hasn’t been in this budget and that’s one of growth.  It’s one that I’m very familiar with because in addition to being a parent in this Town, I am also a guidance counselor at the high school.  The challenge problem at the high school is how do we handle going from a small school to a medium school.  I started there eight years ago, we had approximately 550 to 575 students, there are 860 right now and I believe that we will go over 900 next year.  I think people should know that we have cut services and much to the dismay of people we are servicing, because in this Town we have come to expect a certain level of personal services.  It offends me that this year, that the 8th grade parents were not entitled to a meeting that we have had in the past to help 8th grade students transition to the high school.  They were not happy and we were not happy.  But we had to pool our resources and the guidance counselors from the high school went to the middle school and addressed students in large numbers to answer their questions.  We’re available by phone, we will meet with parents if they need it, but the level of service has changed.  We’ve also seen a drastic number of cuts in elective courses; that deeply saddens me.  I believe a good education is one that not only offers basics, but enriches and enhances children’s lives.  I registered a students a few months ago from Hebron and she was so disappointed she asked Mrs. Peregrin, no photography?  (No)  Do you have journalism? (no), there are other Towns who offer much more.  We cut culinary arts, technical education, our PE program at the high school – I also have a daughter at the middle school and I know she is not getting the same opportunities that my son had who is now in college.  That bothers me.  I do believe the extra programs that we provide for students lives, gives them their niche, it helps them find where their interests lay, it helps them socially, personally, as well as academically.  I think the big problem we face and that we’re putting on our leaders is what do we do about this growth?  Add in the problem of revaluation and this year has been a very tough process.  I don’t like the fact that we’re on a third referendum; I hope that all of us will go out and vote on June 28th in favor of this budget.

Jim Leonard, Timber Lane:  I want to echo all the other speakers who want to thank the members of the boards for their time and effort on the process.  I’m taking you at your word that want suggestions – I’m going to provide you with a couple.  I’ll preface this by looking at the budget increases over the last few years.  They’ve been fairly large and looking at the budget increases the first thing that pops up is there seems to be very little budgetary discipline.  I would suggest you would communicate with the tax payers on budgetary discipline, whether it’s the consumer price index or whatever it is, so they will have some guidelines in what they do.  How do you get the services the tax payers want and satisfy the tax payers?  I think one good example of that is to make sure that you get $1.10 out of every dollar you spend and I have not ever talked to a tax payer that hasn’t seen instances where there is waste in government.  My suggestion is that you take a look at the waste in government.  Chairman Hines had a comment in some of his election literature that he spends the tax payer’s money like his money.  Talking to tax payers, it doesn’t appear that’s happening.  This Town has built some very nice tennis courts over the last few years, and every winter, the nets are up.  I know that the life span of the nets is not going to save the tax payers a lot of money, but if you multiply that by 1,000, it becomes a lot.  If the Town government and the people for them had a discipline culture that Mr. Hines is trying to provide as spending tax payers money like their money, we wouldn’t have waste in government.  My second suggestion is do a little creative thinking; I hear a lot about that Town does this, that Town does that, so you are looking at your peers rather than any creative effort.  Several studies indicate that private education system has a higher quality of education for less money.  Rather than looking at Farmington and Simsbury, maybe it’s time to start looking to private schools.  Maybe you can learn to do more with less money.
My final suggestion is to develop a budgetary process and get more out of dollars.

Cathy Zirolli, 76 Tamara Circle:  I just want to say I started coming to meetings this year because I wanted to understand the process, it was not explained to me last year and I was horrified by the Town Meeting.  Going to the meetings this year, it has been a learning process to see the tension, debate like there are between the groups and I think I really wish the Town did understand the effort that was taken this year to educate the public, to get information from the web site, to inform us as particulars was necessary versus what is not and I think we need to give them credit and recognize that we voted these people in office and I really have a hard time understanding if we voted them, why do we continue to vote down the budget.  We voted them in for a reason, we think they’re knowledgeable, I now do believe, after voting, that they are knowledgeable and while we have improvements, I think they are willing to recognize the work on those.  One thing is binding arbitration that I do not know much about.  I really want to lend my support for the budget; I did support the first, and the second and I will support the third and I think in my mind, teachers and nurses are the most underpaid professions and they have done the most to assist me along the way and I can’t say enough about them.  Thank you.

Randy Leaning,  559 Lovely Street:  I’ve lived in Avon for 22 years and I did support the first and second referenda and I do endorse the third.  I think this increase of 4.39% show tremendous compromise, although it’s disappointing to those of us who would like to see money put back into the Town.  I think it shows how fiscally responsible and fair that the Boards have been.  I think the best thing you could do to maintain the Town as we know it today is to approve this budget.  There has been some great commentary here tonight and I want to thank people for sharing their additional knowledge that they’ve learned and brought to the process, but earlier there was a comment about questioning the teachers’ salaries and comparisons and it was delivered in a very accusatory tone and I believe there is a reluctance or a resistance to learn more about the process.  I think Dr. Kisiel and Peggy offered information on why there is such discrepancy and I did not get a sense that there was an openness to hearing that.  I think it was a compromise to put it on a web site so people can understand the answer, but that’s the short of thing people are talking about that no matter which side of the vote you’re on, you need to learn more about the process and what goes into schools as well as the Town.  Further, I encourage everybody to do so.  Thank you.

Adam Lazynsk, 88 Deepwood Drive:  When I attended the April 1st meeting, I complimented the Board of Finance and the Town Manager and his staff, Dr. Kisiel and his staff for their efforts in trying to establish a reasonable budget.  Over the course of this spring, what I’ve noticed, my impression has been that people have not been angered or frustrated over the Town’s operating budget, but it’s been mostly a contentious debate over the Board of Ed’s budget.  I know that the Board of Finance has done their best to listed to the people, I do not understand how the Board of Finance can go to the Town and say you have to reduce the Town’s Operating Budget by another $192,000 when from the beginning the Town’s operating budget was submitted at a very low level to help out the Board of Ed’s budget.  I support the Board of Education budget, but I think it’s wrong to make the Town’s budget be reduced even further.  If you cut $5,000 for brush collection this year, it’s going to cost you more in subsequent years when you try to reinstitute it, just tell people to save brush for two years.  You eliminate the purchase of a police cruiser and say well we can maintain our existing cruisers.  Everyone knows the older the car gets, it becomes more costly to maintain it.  I just dropped $200. on my old car this week, so I understand that.  Mr. Harrison, I didn’t know the answer on April 1st and I still don’t have any answers, but to take from Peter to pay Paul is wrong.  Thank you.
There being no further comments or questions, the Chairman declared the meeting adjourned at 9:50 P.M.

                                                        Respectfully submitted,
                                                        Thomas A. Gugliotti, Secretary


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06-17-04 Public Hearing