ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
MONDAY, DECEMBER 27, 2005
Members Present: Ms. Marteney, Mr. Baroody , Mr. Darrow, Mr. Westlake, Ms. Brower, Mr. Rejman
Member Absent: Ms. Aubin
Staff Present: Ms. Hussey, Mr. Hicks, Mr. Selvek
APPLICATION APPROVED: 160 Grant Avenue
Mr. Rejman: Good evening, this is the Zoning Board of Appeals. Tonight we have one item on the Agenda: 160 Grant Avenue
_____________________________________________________________
160 Grant Avenue, C3 zoning district. HDL Property Group, applicant. Area variance for animated LED sign.
Mr. Rejman: 160 Grant Avenue are you here? Please use the mike and I understand we have a video to look at here?
Mr. O’Neill: Thank you Mr. Chairman and good evening to the board, appreciate you coming out on a cold night and a Christmas night. My name is Mike O’Neill; I am with American Group One, 11 East Genesee Street, Skaneateles, representing Walgreens and HDL Properties. We are asking for a variance for a LED reader board sign at out location at 160 Grant Avenue. With me this evening is Brian Donovan of HDL Properties and Mike Medico.
We made a presentation at the last meeting and the board requested that we video a typical sign. We did that, this particular sign is in Buffalo. We have had similar signs approved in Syracuse, in Utica and in Rochester. So without further a due, if this sign of the board would like to go to that side. It is not as exciting as King Kong or some other film, but (everyone laughs).
Mr. Donovan: I just want to reiterate what you are seeing was an LED reader board that was put up five years ago in Buffalo.
Mrs. Westlake: Please use the mike.
Mr. Donovan: Brian Donovan, 249 Edgerton Street, Rochester, New York. What you are looking at tonight was an LED reader board that was put up five years ago. Unfortunately there is nothing close enough that is the newest technology that Mike could film, but it will give you a general idea. What I handed out today is what the new prototypes are like, lot more colors, more viable, not as busy as the Kinney Drugs, the two that are in the City.
Mr. Medico: (Shows the video). OK, what you are going to see here in the first is a five second interval. The standard for a LED reader board sign is 3-second intervals. The next one is a ten second interval. This is a very busy intersection. There has never been an accident here. This was shot at 9:00 a.m. and 10:00 a.m.
Mr. Donovan: This is old technology, it was the best at the time but now what we have is color, more graphics, plasma screen technology.
Mr. Darrow: What about support?
Mr. Donovan: Single support. We will have a nice sign, flowers planted down below; it wasn’t as high as this. This is a big, big sign.
Mr. Medico: What we have here now is 15 seconds (continuing to show the video). It will seem like a long time. reader board.
Ms. Hussey: What kind of businesses are located on the other corners?
Mr. Medico: A car dealership, a restaurant and another roadside business, I can’t remember what it is, but none of them have reader boards. (Board members go back to their seats).
Mr. Rejman: For the record, I do need to mention that we are short one member tonight, so there are only six voting members.
Mr. O’Neill: Mr. Chairman we have basically demonstrated the technology that we are asking for a very basis 3 second to 5 to 10 and on up. Essentially the client would like to get a 3 second interval, we are quite flexible with respect to how the City would like to control it. If it is an acceptable technology we are willing to work with the City, if we do something that is too fast or we view it as too slow, that capability is available with this technology.
Mr. Rejman: Questions from the board?
Mr. Westlake: Brian, why actually was this turned down?
Mr. Hicks: According to Code, it is classified as an attention getting device.
Mr. Rejman: Right, that is the issue. Thinking about it this past month, when Kinney Drugs went through I know we were concerned about the height, concerned about the keeping the lighting on site so it didn’t splash out and you know I don’t remember that being an issue, square footage was, but the Genie is out of the bottle now!
Mr. Darrow: As far as the timing of it goes, I can see where when you are watching a 15 second, it just seems way too long. I personally think that is something that determination that would be something better left up to perhaps the Traffic Department at the APD. I don’t know if we can do that, leave that up to Officer Weed’s discretion that if he feels 3 seconds is too slow or 10 second is too fast, for him to adjust that because I think if we just come up with a number it would be nothing but arbitrary.
Mr. Rejman: We would be spot zoning
Mr. Darrow: Where they may need to adjust it some more between we saw 3, we saw 5, we saw 10, we feel asleep at 15.
Mr. O’Neill: Excuse me, would it be a possibility of saying in the range of a minimum of 3 to a maximum of 10, depending on the continued review by the APD, something like that?
Mr. Darrow: That is what I am looking for. Looking for a consensus
Mr. Westlake: I don’t think the APD is going to want to get involved with this at all.
Mr. Darrow: It has to do with traffic, it is something that Officer Weed needs to be involved with.
Mr. Rejman: Let me get counsel’s opinion.
Ms. Hussey: This board needs to take very application individually, consider each application individually. While you look at prior precedence, that doesn’t necessarily control because each property has a different location and each has a different circumstance, in other words the changing and emerging technology. I think the board needs to make a decision or have the input and I was just reviewing quickly last month’s minutes and I think there was request by Mr. Darrow to get Officer Weed’s input in this. I don’t know, Brian, do we have any thing from the Police Department?
Mr. Hicks: I have no information in my packet.
Mr. Westlake: Before the Niagara Bank was the Niagara Bank it the Cayuga County Savings Bank or Cayuga Bank, they had a time and temperature clock there for years and years.
Mr. Darrow: That is true.
Ms. Hussey: Excuse me, under our Code that is different because it doesn’t contain advertising that is what they called Community Information sign.
Mr. Darrow: Tompkins Trust has the same thing on North Street.
Ms. Hussey: Exactly and that is allowed under the Code.
Mr. Medico: Mike Medico, 1814 James Street, Syracuse, New York. When we talked at last month’s meeting, I think you all were interested in a slightly longer interval, so actually we were talking about 5 to 10 seconds, so I started at 5 seconds and when I got to the 30 second, I said you guys would be sleeping, because it really does get to be too long. I can say this thought the industry standard is 3 seconds and the majority of signs that I have seen are no longer than that.
Mr. Darrow: I just believe that we set the spot between 3 and 10, now the discretion is up to Walgreens where, maybe it was two weeks ago, I don’t know if any body saw it in The Citizen, that intersection had the second most accidents in the City. Now I think that would be something to go back and see where it is say in 3 month phases, 3 months last year and see where it is. That is why one of the reasons I truly feel that we need to have the power and discretion in somebody with the context of the City to say “you know maybe we need to slow that down a little more or maybe we need to speed it up a little more”. That is why I am coming up with that.
Ms. Marteney: I wonder who is going to do that.
Mr. Rejman: Is that within our realm?
Ms. Hussey: I think that is beyond, this board is asking to
Mr. Darrow: I just put that out to see what everybody thought.
Mr. Westlake: The time never come into their application any way, they just want the LED reader, they didn’t put a time limit.
Mr. Darrow: Right, it has been suggested that perhaps we should.
Mr. Rejman: I think we may be treading on ground where some on could say we arbitrary and capricious.
Ms. Hussey: I think so too.
Mr. Darrow: That is fine, I was just putting it out for discussion.
Mr. Westlake: I was thinking that it is industry standard for 3 seconds
Mr. Rejman: After we have a few and have a working team put together with who ever wants to be on it in the City, they could probably come up with some standards. Just like they came up with the size of the sign.
Ms. Marteney: I think the accidents at the corner are related to the way the arrows go or don’t go and I don’t know if it has anything with a change in the sign there.
Mr. Darrow: Nor do I until a study is done which may or may not ever be needed. I truly see the sign as something good in the fact that perhaps other businesses on Grant Avenue may want to get away from the less attractive letter boards, in keeping up with the competition, I think it might spruce up the signage on Grant Avenue.
Mr. Westlake: This may be a cruel to say it but if someone did get in an accident and they said it was due to that sign, they would be suing these people.
Mr. Rejman: This is all really really good stuff but let me put it back in step, 1, 2, 3, 4. Any more questions at this point for the applicants? No. Closing statements or anything?
Mr. O’Neill: I have one statement I don’t know if it is fact or fiction but potentially as you come down Seward Avenue and round the curve where formerly P&C was, I don’t know if any of those accidents, there are a lot of accidents that occur there because the road it tilted, other than that, thank you.
Mr. Donovan: Walgreens has over 5,000 stores in the country. They would never do anything that would increase any accidents. If there was even one store out there which has an LED reader board and some how increased the accidents on that corner, they are not in that business. If once that board is up and you come to me and say you know Brian the thing is going too quickly can you slow it down, you are not going to find more accommodating company than Walgreens.
Mr. Rejman: Let me ask a question. You are working with a location in Syracuse?
Mr. Donovan: Eastwood.
Mr. Rejman: How is that going?
Mr. Donovan: We got our approval for Eastwood.
Mr. Rejman: OK, not that that has anything to do with this. Anyone wishing to speak for or against the application? Hearing none, we will close the public portion and discuss.
Mr. Darrow: Maybe this is something we shouldn’t be weighing in on
Mr. Westlake: I don’t think so.
Mr. Darrow: Our Corporation Counsel could let me know if I am off base on this, but I would like to see and I don’t see anything in our packet, we didn’t have anything new added, of the sign, of how it is going to be landscaped, what it is actually going to look like rather than just this steel pole.
Mr. Rejman: It is going to look like this.
Ms. Marteney: No, that is an old one.
Mr. Rejman: Come back up for a second.
Mr. Donovan: It is a single pole going up, all landscaped at the bottom.
Mr. Rejman: I am talking about the small sign.
Ms. Hussey: 10’ 11” by 3’ 8” so 11 x 4.
Mr. Rejman: The Kinney’s is a little different, fatter.
Mr. Westlake: As far as the amount of time, it is not in their application and I don’t think we should enter into that.
Mr. Rejman: I don’t think we can go there.
Ms. Marteney: I have no basis for making any decision on that.
Mr. Rejman: I would like to but I don’t think we can.
Mr. Westlake: Not something they are asking for, all they are asking for is LED reader board.
Mr. Rejman: Now I gas up at the Mobil station at the corner of State and Seymour Streets, so lately I have been watching that sign and that sign is every 2 seconds and I have been watching the people and you know what, when it is new they look at it, if it is old after 30 days I am not sure it is even worth advertising on it to be honest with you. They do look at the time and temperature, after that they don’t care.
Mr. Westlake: They don’t care about the price of coke; they just want to get by there.
Mr. Rejman: And there is a lot of truth in that, they don’t care about the price of coke, but if they need coke they are going to go there because that is where they drive. Any other comments?
Ms. Brower: When I looked at that video I see a busy intersection like our own and a 5 second interval didn’t seem too crazy. But the 3 second I think is going to be a faster pace and as you say we may or may not have the right to speak to that, but it seems to me we have the right to reject the sign if you don’t think it is good for the corner, right?
Mr. Rejman: Yes.
Ms. Brower: And I also think that the 5 second would be a smart thing to create as a minimum, that way we have seen it and we now that it is a more relaxed pace. The light is 30 seconds long and in that time there would be time for 6 advertisements, 6 or 7 things can go by.
Mr. Rejman: Counsel down the road if these things start popping up around the City, in your opinion, wouldn’t the City tend to bring an ordinance forward stipulating some things?
Ms. Hussey: You know that would be totally up to Council but keep in mind that there are certain Ordinances that while the ZBA sees applications for instance regarding pools and the size of the accessory buildings, Council has declined to change the Ordinance because they want the board to take the discretion and look at the individual circumstance.
Mr. Rejman: But aren’t they asking a bit much on the timing of the signs?
Ms. Hussey: Timing I mean, basically timing is up to the discretion of I would say up to the discretion of the property owner or the applicant, unless the ZBA has evidence a little more evidence to look at otherwise any setting on this would be arbitrary because you have absolutely no basis to determine what your time is.
Ms. Brower: Did the Buffalo sign with that 5 seconds and not 3 because they have
Mr. Medico: I basically went with what you talked about at the last meeting. You all were considering a much longer period of time so I didn’t even go 3 seconds. I should have maybe filmed it at 3 seconds because when I was there once I looked at 5 seconds that didn’t seem like a lot, then 10 seconds, etc.
Mr. Rejman: Again the industry being 3.
Mr. Darrow: Am I gathering that the majority of us feel that maybe there should be something like between 3 and 10 seconds or no time at all? What is the feeling?
Ms. Marteney: I don’t feel I have any expertise to make any kind of judgment about it.
Mr. Darrow: What about the times that you saw?
Ms. Marteney: I saw it and I don’t think 5 is inappropriate.
Mr. Westlake: Each individual case, it has got to be that.
Mr. Baroody: I would say each individual case. I am sure Walgreens has done a ton of research for what is best for the community and best for Walgreens.
Mr. Darrow: So I am getting that it is the consensus that we feel there should be no timing.
Ms. Marteney: I am uncomfortable with it.
Mr. Darrow: OK.
Mr. Rejman: I don’t think counsel would be comfortable if we put a time on it.
Mr. Darrow: OK, that is all I am looking for.
Ms. Hussey: Basically what is before the board is either allowing or disallowing that LED sign at that location.
Mr. Darrow: Fine. Does everybody feel good about this sign at that location?
Mr. Westlake: I do.
Mr. Rejman: This is the new technology that is what is coming I suppose.
Mr. Westlake: If there was a traffic problem, the Police Department would then step in, that is my feeling.
Mr. Rejman: I think it speaks too that Officer Weed isn’t here.
Mr. Darrow: That is what we need; we need a consensus amongst ourselves.
Mr. Baroody: You would expect Walgreens to be good corporate citizens.
Mr. Darrow: I would like to make a motion that we grant HDL Properties LLC of 7585 Manlius Center Road, a area variance for Walgreens at 160 Grant Avenue for the purpose of erecting a animated LED reader board to be placed at the corner of Grant Avenue and North Seward Avenue as per submitted plot plan.
Mr. Westlake: I second that motion.
VOTING IN FAVOR: Ms. Marteney, Mr. Baroody, Mr. Darrow, Ms. Brower, Mr. Westlake, Mr. Rejman
Mr. Rejman: Application has been approved.
Mr. Donovan: Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of your holiday.
Mr. O’Neill: Thank you and Happy New Year.
Mr. Rejman: Meeting adjourned at 7:30 p.m.
| 
