CITY OF AUBURN ELECTRICAL BOARD OF EXAMINERS
Meeting December 11, 2002 at 7:00 pm
Attendants: Jim Salva, Jim Moore, Ken Lumb, Bob Smith, Nancy Quill and Nancy Hussey
Hussey I have names of a couple different electrical inspection agencies. We can go through and look at the pros and cons of each. You, as working electricians in the industry, will have an idea of who is who.
Salva Basically what has happened in the last six months is the New York Board of Fire Underwriters has had a lot of retirements and not replaced those retirees, they lost their branch manager in Syracuse, who was excellent, they did not replace him, they have not made any provisions for coverage of inspectors when they are out sick or on vacation. The whole thing has really gotten very bad. Even the clerical end of it has gotten bad. Getting inspections in the mail and the monthly bills are all messed up. There paperwork has gotten as bad as their service.
Hussey What is the turn around for them now?
Salva There is not set time. It depends on any given day. The inspectors take phone calls in the morning from 7:30 to 8:30. Number one, you try to get through on the phone, number two, you try to get on the list for an inspection. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. The last two months Bob Smith has been out with a knee operation and the service has gotten really bad. The inspector that is covering his territory lives in Skaneateles, but goes as far as East Syracuse. Bob Smith goes north as far as Fair Haven and west as far as Geneva. Their standard territories are very large. It’s hard for them to do their own work let alone somebody else’s.
Hussey They’re spending more time on the road going from sight to sight, than they are actually inspecting.
Salva Right. Take the Kinney Drugs on State St., I called for inspections but they couldn’t get out there and they just plain wouldn’t wait, so they sheet-rocked, which is not great.
Hussey Permissible?
Moore The inspector can be a real dog and make them take it all out, but he’s the one that didn’t make it there. We can’t hold people up.
Hussey That was my next question. Does this theoretically hold up jobs?
Salva Sure it does, but on these commercial jobs, people don’t wait. All these retail stores and commercial enterprises are on a dead line. Their opening is preset months in advance and they can’t wait.
Hussey How can they get a Certificate of Completion?
Salva The work that should have been inspected at a certain time will get inspected on the next visit.
Hussey But if they sheetrock over it, are the electrical inspectors still passing the work? In order to get a CO don’t they have to pass inspection?
Moore Yes.
Hussey So these guys are basically signing…
Salva In this case I took photos of all the open walls showing my work, because of the situation, there was nobody to inspect it. There were two weeks around Thanksgiving when there was no coverage at all. So I took photos of everything. It’s not the officially correct way to do it, but I did what I could do.
Quill Dunkin Donuts is another scenario. The job is done, the business is open and they need their CO. I’ve left messages for Ernie and faxed him the CO to sign and return, but have heard nothing back from him.
Salva I’ve got a final inspection. He put the sticker signifying that on the breaker panel. Ernie needs to stop at the Codes Office to sign the CO, but he doesn’t have the time to get there. John Wejko called me today very irate. He has a CO theoretically, but not literally because it hasn’t been signed off.
Hussey But if something happens to that structure, he’s going to have insurance issues.
Salva We have the sticker on the panel.
Moore If they had a Building Inspector in the Codes Office, he could issue a CO in his name only until we get the other one completed. I have done that many times. We try not to stop construction.
Salva We came up with a theory last month that perhaps we could look into becoming self-inspected, which is what the City of Syracuse does. At that time Bob Smith was still out of work and we thought he might retire and become a logical candidate for us. In the meantime, Bob came back to work this past Monday and retired from the Underwriters effective January 1st. So we thought great, that’s even better. Well, Bob called me this evening and let me know that Commonwealth, one of the other inspection agencies, had offered him a job.
Bob Smith and Ken Lumb enter the room.
Salva I’m glad you guys made it in. I was just filling Nancy in on what has happened so far with you and the Underwriters and Commonwealth.
Smith Okay.
Hussey What’s with Commonwealth?
Smith They’re one of the bigger inspection agency and they’re interested in working in the City of Auburn. I don’t know much more than that.
Hussey And they contacted you?
Smith Yes, because they heard that I retired. I’ve been contacted by all of the inspection agencies. I told them to send the city all their information. Supposedly, it’s in the mail. The city needs to do something other than have just one inspection agency.
Hussey That’s the thing we are trying to resolve. There’s Middle Department, Atlantic-Inland, Commonwealth and The Inspector. So we have four possibilities. Are these the only viable inspection agencies for this area?
Smith Some are more viable than others.
Hussey What are your opinions?
Moore Atlantic-Inland has never been that good.
Hussey Okay.
Smith I don’t think you need to have all of them, just some backup. Like the New York Board and Commonwealth.
Hussey So keep Underwriters?
Smith We have to keep them for a while. I have like three hundred open applications in my file that somebody has to finish.
Salva There is a lot of in-process work.
Moore Why should we be rewarding them?
Salva We’re not rewarding them, we would actually be penalizing ourselves. I’ve got three dozen applications open with them at various stages. If I were to jump ship immediately, I would have to re-file with a new agency and pay again, pay double basically. Plus, another agency is going to be walking in mid-stream on a job that may already be dry-walled. You have to kind of finish up what is already started. If we had two agencies…
Smith I don’t think it would be a bad idea to keep the New York Board and have Commonwealth. Then that way they can’t say it’s a monopoly.
Salva Right now New York Board has a monopoly, they really do.
Hussey That’s why you’re in a pickle.
Salva Why should I only have one choice for an inspection agency?
Moore Nobody can stop any other agency from coming in here?
Salva The city apparently has no formal agreement.
Hussey That’s what I was wondering. Why is it just New York Board of Fire Underwriters? The code is generic. It says “any inspection agency”.
Smith In order for it to be legal, the city would have to sign an agreement with the New York Board. They have been after me all week to see if we had a signed agreement.
Hussey With the city?
Smith Yes.
Salva The New York Board wants to sign an exclusive agreement with the city.
Quill Does the city have that right?
Hussey No, we don’t.
Quill So you guys can call anybody you want?
Hussey We need to determine whether or not the city has an agreement with the Underwriters.
Smith It may have been signed at one time, but it has to be signed every year.
Hussey So it’s a yearly renewal?
Quill Apparently we do not have one then. We are talking strictly about inspections done at the city’s request, through my office.
Hussey Okay. Jim, a lot of your work is with NYSEG?
Salva NYSEG will recognize any agency within the city that the city itself recognizes. Right now NYSEG recognizes the New York Board, because the city does.
Smith They probably call Jim Moore and he says the New York Board because it has always been done that way.
Quill Right, but there is no written agreement. I called NYSEG personally and they gave me the names of all of those inspection agencies, which they work with.
Hussey I think the best approach is having multiple inspection agencies available. Industry-wise there will not be any ill effect on the city. They all charge basically the same rates, right?
Smith Yes.
Hussey We have to bring it before City Council to have them designate a number of agencies.
Quill When my inspectors need an electrical inspection done, does the city have to have a contract with the agency we call or can it be any of those designated?
Hussey I don’t see why you would, as long as they are certified and qualified.
Quill And free, because the city does not pay for inspections. So do we need to confirm with these agencies, that they will do, at least, the initial inspection at our request, free of charge?
Hussey Yes. Most likely, the reason it is in the code that it has to be designated by Council is to protect the residents by making sure they are certified and to do the due diligence.
Smith I think the code needs to require that it be a certified electrical inspection agency, because some do not have their certification.
Quill That’s why we are requesting these information packages from them. I told them we would need their certifications, rates, insurances, etc.
Hussey Here is what I suggest. You gentlemen are all experts in the trade and I think you, as a group should designate which agencies are qualified to do the inspections. Just make a formal recommendation and I will incorporate into a resolution to present to the Council in a background memo and have them act on it. You can evaluate their insurance, their credentials, their certifications and their service and present a list of designated agencies.
Quill I will make all of you a copy of the packages they send me for your review.
Hussey Council is not qualified to make a decision on any of this and they don’t want to. They want to know where they stand. At your next meeting, if you can submit just a memo stating what your preferences and recommendations are, I can formalize it. Council meets every week.
Smith I’m sure they need to do something.
Salva Absolutely.
Hussey Council also has interest in making sure that construction goes forward in a timely manner so that all these people building out here and developing our community meet their time frames. There is a common interest here.
Smith This city is not quite big enough to do their own inspections, but almost. All of the big cities, like Syracuse and Ithaca, don’t even use agencies; they have their own certified inspectors and more than one. This city can’t support even one.
Quill The city doesn’t want to be responsible for holding jobs and money. You start losing money if you don’t meet your deadlines, right?
Salva That’s right.
Smith There’s enough work for maybe 20 hours a week, maybe a half-time inspector.
Hussey This provision doesn’t in anyway limit an inspector to one agency either. I think I would put in the memo that there may be an anti-competition issue there.
Smith There’s going to be some changes.
Salva Especially with you leaving now.
Smith I’m ninety-nine percent sure that I’m going to go to work for Commonwealth.
Hussey You’re leaving January 1st?
Smith I’m going to take a week off just to unplug my phone and relax.
Hussey Can we get this done by January 1st?
Smith New York Board will have to take care of you until you do.
Salva There is a lot of in-process stuff they need to keep going on anyway. Fortunately, this is not the height of the building season.
Smith Right.
Hussey Don’t you do more inside jobs this time of year? It doesn’t matter?
Salva No.
Moore You have Cuthbert coming up.
Salva They’ll be taking the permit now, but won’t be doing anything significant until spring.
Hussey You’ve determined that it is not practical to have the city self-inspected, because there just isn’t enough to work to support it at this point.
Moore Not full-time. Part-time? Yes.
Salva Our best candidate for that position is probably going to go with another firm.
Smith I would go with the city if they wanted to hire me part-time.
Hussey But you don’t live in the city and there are other issues?
Smith Right. I’m not sure it can happen and I don’t want to be stuck.
Quill Not only that, we would have to start issuing permits, which means another computer program and more clerical duties. There will be fees generated from it.
Hussey Would there be enough to cover the costs?
Moore There would be more than enough if we follow the Underwriters fee schedule.
Salva I spend a thousand dollars a month at the Underwriters myself.
Hussey Just for city inspections?
Salva There are some in the outer lying areas, but a vast majority is in the city.
Hussey Do you think opening it up to other agencies at this point is probably the best solution? Or can you come up with figures for a formal proposal for the city to self-inspect? Not excluding other cost factors with respect to benefits and insurance and things of that nature.
Salva That will be a lot more complicated to put together and a lot more complicated to push through. And if we don’t have a candidate for the position…
Hussey But this is a more readily viable solution.
Quill We need to do this now. We can consider the other matter down the road.
Salva This should be pretty simple.
Hussey I think it will be rectifying the current problem.
Smith The only thing that I can see might be confusing is the different kinds of paperwork from different agencies.
Quill For my department?
Smith Right.
Quill No. We just make sure that the work was actually done in the city limits and that the contractor is licensed, then it’s filed.
Smith We’ll have to give a list of the licensees to each of the agencies so that they know who is licensed.
Quill Right.
Salva Do we need to open it up to more than one additional agency?
Hussey We don’t need to. If you have somebody designated, you don’t need to select them for inspections, but if you get stuck and you need somebody there, the more options you have the better off you’ll be. Just because somebody is on the list does not mean that you have to call each and every one of them, it just means that they have been deemed qualified with the proper insurance, credentials, etc.
Moore That is what we should go with.
Smith Most of the agencies are certified, but not all of their inspectors are certified. They use the agencies certifications.
Hussey Will they provide that information for each inspector?
Smith No.
Hussey That is something that we can require they submit, because you guys will be making the recommendation. I think you, as the board, can require that.
Smith I am certified, but I know that 75 percent of the inspectors are not.
Hussey Is that going to create a limitation?
Salva Yes, that might.
Moore Who certifies them?
Smith International Association of Electrical Inspectors.
Moore I do think the inspectors should be certified.
Smith Most of the ones with the Board are. Ernie is a newcomer and hasn’t had his done yet. As an agency, I can hire you and have you inspect City Hall tomorrow, because I have the credentials.
Hussey Like your Master Plumber’s and Electrician’s, who have people working under their license?
Salva Right.
Quill Are most of the inspection agencies set up with each inspector having their own area?
Smith Yes.
Quill So we can stipulate that the inspector covering the area including the City of Auburn, or anybody filling in for them, must be certified?
Smith Right.
Quill Whether all of their inspectors are certified or not, we want to make sure that the ones working in the city are?
Salva Right.
Hussey Can you expand it by saying they are in the process of being certified? Is it a long certification process?
Smith It’s a test. Twice a year they give an exam. It’s just knowing the code. The state will eventually mandate the individual certifications. I am amazed that they have not already.
Hussey Then we should just leave it up to the state and let them do the job.
Quill I agree.
Lumb As long as we are covered, I don’t think we should get into that requirement.
Hussey Why don’t you present it…as a group, when you’re making a recommendation to have somebody come in and inspect, it is your “preference” to have somebody that is certified, but it is not “mandatory”. These are policies that are set by the board. Maybe there is confusion between what is in the code and what your board policies are.
Lumb I just want to make sure that we are doing it legally correct, so that we don’t run into a problem later.
Hussey Sure. I agree with you and you may get yourself in a pickle by requiring everybody to be certified, because of the practicality. In the future, if it is your opinions that the state will mandate the certifications, then leave that up to the state. But, when you are looking at a list and examining the due diligence these companies have, find out who is certified and let these companies know that you prefer to have certified inspectors. Keep it silent, you know?
Moore You have to be certified period and I am sticking to that.
Quill Okay, you can have that vote when the time comes.
Hussey You are going to have to discuss that between yourselves.
Salva One other thing, our charter reads “the” electrical inspector will be a member of the board.
Quill We’ll change that to “an”.
Moore Who are we going to get?
Salva Okay. It also reads the “Building Inspector” as a member of the board and we don’t have that either.
Hussey I’ll take a look at that.
Salva Can you see Ernie sitting here?
Smith No.
Hussey It doesn’t say “the” electrical inspector. It says, “An inspector of an electrical inspection agency authorized to make electrical inspections in the City of Auburn”.
Salva Okay.
Moore Who are we going to appoint?
Salva We’ve already got Bob.
Quill You’re not going anywhere, are you Bob?
Smith No.
Hussey There is one question. On the license renewals, the code says, “the board shall investigate all renewal applications submitted”. How I’m thinking you can do this is if the renewal list is submitted to the board and you ratify it at your next meeting.
Quill Even though they have already been renewed.
Hussey Right, because you can revoke it at any time. It’s just a formality.
Lumb In a sense, that is what we have already done. Dorothy would come in January and say these people have not renewed.
Hussey So it is being done?
Lumb Yes.
Hussey Is there any letter sent out telling them it is time to renew?
Quill Yes, in mid to late November, a renewal letter with all the requirements is mailed out to the last address on record.
Hussey Then everything looks like it’s being done, it’s just very old language. As long as you have the procedures in place there’s no need to change it. Anything else?
Quill Oh yeah, I just want you guys to know that I had to file a grievance to paid my overtime for these meetings and I still have not been paid for last month. I’ll be putting in another time sheet for tonight and I’ll let you know what happens. Nancy, you’ll be waiting for some recommendation from the board next month then?
Hussey Short and sweet. “The Electrical Board has duly considered all agencies in the area and we recommend the following to be designated by the Council”.
Salva Once that happens, we send a memo to NYSEG saying that we recognize the following.
Hussey Council will do resolution designating the agencies. We will certify it and you can send a copy of that to NYSEG.
Quill Good. Apparently that is what they claim to have from us regarding the New York Board of Fire Underwriters?
Hussey Have you talked to them? Can you find out if they indeed to have it?
Quill They say the same thing everybody else has, “It’s been that way forever”. Nobody has written proof of any such agreement.
Hussey Okay.
Quill Does the board approve the minutes from the November meeting?
Moore Aye.
Salva Aye.
Smith Aye.
Quill Minutes approved.
Salva One more thing. Nancy said that some of the applicants, who took the test last month and failed, have called her asking if they could know their score. For years, Dorothy kept the scores in her book as a sacred secret and nobody could see them. Really, why can’t they know their score? It’s a reasonable request. They can sit down and look at their test, but we won’t review it with them, but they should know their score.
Lumb Yeah, they should know.
Quill Okay, I will let them know their score, but if they want to look at their test they will have to make a request in advance and it will have to be done at the time of a regularly scheduled Electric Board meeting?
Salva That will be good.
Moore I agree.
+End of meeting
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